[Martin]

Hi all!
 It's naive question week!
 About a week ago I mentioned to Hugh about
how much difference there can be from one CD to the next.
  So much so that it would seems you would start
listening to music based on recording quality
rather than a musical quality or lyrical quality.
   Being able to hear everything that is on a track is a
new thing to these ears and has caused me great pause.
  There are some song/cds that I used to really like, but just
don't measure up recording wise. So does that mean that
the better my system gets the narrower listenable CD selection gets?
  It's appears to a sort of double edge sword, rock & a hard place,
damned if I do...damned if I don't sort of deal.
  What goes into making a great recording?
  Why does one recording have great sonics and another doesn't?
  Is it the engineers that are making great recordings
and not so much the artist?
  Does it have to do with the recording studio itself?

 Is this taboo?

 Thanks
 Martin

P.s. I am enjoying my music!

[mb]

No, this is a very valid topic.

Fortunately, in my case, as my system has evolved, resolution has increased (quite dramatically, IMHO), as has transparency, but the range of listenable CDs has increased (more than doubled!).

Some CDs which were very tough to listen to <6 months ago:

- DG: Beethoven violin sonatas / Dumay & Pires
- Teldec: Brahms complete symphonis / Harnoncourt / Berlin Phil

Broadly speaking, many DG and Teldec recordings seem to be challenging: hard edged, sometimes brittle. As my system has progressed, mainly in the digital replay and room eq front, more of these cds seem to become enjoyable.

[PSP]

Martin,
I have also struggled with this.  Some recordings are just poorly done, but it's also possible that an upgrade will expose other weaknesses in your system.  If that happens, you have the options to

- live with it, accept that you can now listen to a more narrow range of recordings
 - undo the upgrade, go back to less a resolving, but more tolerant system
 - bite the bullet and upgrade the newly-exposed weak link in your system (but now you must spend money and time on a problem that you didn't know you had and haven't budgeted for)[/list:u]
When I applied the Nirvana upgrade to the TLP, the weaknesses in my speakers became very, very evident.  Whereas nearly all my recordings sounded sweet with the TLP + AKSA55N combination, with the TLP/N, maybe 30% of my CDs were listenable (but those 30% sounded

extremely nice).  When I upgraded the caps and resistors in my speaker XO I could listen to over 90% and things sounded wonderful again, but now with incredible resolution, better bass, and much more presence, involvement, and excitement.  (I've got the GK-1R on the workbench, so who knows to what level that will take my system??)

Regarding your "why"questions about recording quality... I suppose that some recording engineers are more skillful than others or use better equipment, some are under too much pressure from their overlord beancounters to cut costs and spend less time on each project, some resist (or sidestep) that pressure and make excellent recordings anyway, etc., etc., etc.  Personally, I try hard to buy good recordings when I can identify them (or read about them)... just doing my little bit to reward the guys and companies who are still making the effort to do things well.

Peter

[Tinker]

Hi all!
Why does one recording have great sonics and another doesn't?

The $1M Question.
As an ex-recording engineer questions like this always elicit a huge grin.  Not at you! No insult intended, but this is one of those questions that cannot be defnitively answered, although everyone seeks the answer.
There are many factors that go into the final sound, quite apart from the artist!
1. We have a forum devoted to discussing the pros and cons of often minor modifications to equipment in our Hi-Fis and talk of huge differences. However, we rarely talk about the source! A typical recording will have already passed through between 5 and 100 times more gear in a studio than in your hi-fi before it even hits CD. Gear is important. Note much of the new "pro-audio" gear on the market is not as good as AKSA stuff. I won't name names, but it's true.
2. Gear is a tool. There are good and poor craftspersons using these tools. Engineering is a mixture of art and science are there are many that do it well, precious few that do it REALLY well and plenty that do it really badly. From choosing the right tool, matching it to other tools and applying it properly.
3. The acoustics of a studio play a huge role in final sound and this is the most important (and in amateur setups the most overlooked) part of a sounds. Good acoustics are hard and expensive to achieve. Volumes have been written on this (see F Alton Evarest's "Master Handbook of Acoustics" for a brief introduction) and the best way to do it is still not known. That art is blacker than hi-fi.
4. Quality of the mastering and pressing process is important. Major variable here.
5. The synergy of all the parts can produce unexpected good and bad results. Some luck enters here.
All this before you even stick it in the player!
In short we could write a large book on this, suffice it to say the process is multilayered, complex, synergetic and several orders of magnitude more complicated than tweaking a hi-fi.

This answer is probably not satisfying, so here is my 2c worth:
1. I consider myself a musicphile as well as an audiophile. There are performances I love where the sound is not too hot. I also own recordings which are purely there for their amazing sound.
2. Get to know good labels where the directors have a philosophy of recruiting quality artists, use the best gear and employ the best technicians. Examples of such labels are Chesky, Telarc, Teldec to name a few. Find your own list and read mags on this. I will often buy a CD on the basis of its origins.
2a. Start a list of artists, producers and mastering engineers who seem to have similar individual committments, and follow their work, eg I have rarely heard something bad mastered by Bernie Grundman, Bob Ludwig or George Massenburg.
3. You can buy some cheap studio gear to retard your hi-end setup so that it makes bad recordings more tolerable. For example, the Aphex Aural Exciter is a studio device which is (injudiciously) used to "enhance" the sound of flat tracks. Patching one of these in to your hi-fi can obscure the more objectionable parts of a bad recording. There are plenty of cheap toys like this out there. I un-plug it to listen to good recordings.
4. Learn to revel in what you systems reveals even if it seems to reveal flaws in the recordings. This is a fun exercise. Sometimes.

Anyway, there's a start. I would be most interested to talk about studio techniques and recording industry practice. Also I would be quite interested to start a canonical list/database of good recording labels/companies/artists/engineers etc.

<end rant>

[Martin]

Thanks mb, Peter & Tinker.
 The picture is clearer, but does raise even more questions.
 I am currently using my inexpensive DVD player as my source.
Both my TLP and AKSA 100 have nirvana upgrades. My loudspeakers
are 2 way kit that are the I like, but probably dont know
any better. Being that this is myfirst hi end set up,
I have nothing to compare it to.
I guess I'm just trying to figure where to upgrade next
I'm beginning to realize that there are so many variables I can see why
it can be a never ending search for that perfect set up, and when you do
find it...heaven forbid you should have to move.
I've made an effort over the past couple of days to listen to
a real variety of musical taste, some of which I'll never buy or
ever listen to again. Some stuff sounded like it was poured through a
funnel, some with great space all around it.
It's nice to hear all that I've been missing...good and bad!

 All in all, I'm happy with the results.

Thanks for all the input.
Martin

[Rocket]

hi martin,

sounds like your pre/amp combination is very good.

i've had my aksa 100 nirvana completed for a couple of months and it is a very good amplifier.

if you have a bog standard dvd this is the area which you should consider upgrading next.  i've just bought a second hand perpetual technologies dac with modwright level 1 upgrade and i am pretty please with the improvement in sonics.

there are many other inexpensive dacs which are available.

regards

rocket

[mb]

Hi Martin,

I know you haven't asked, but I concur with Rocket's comments. I have a Pioneer DVD 655, pretty well rated by mags in UK, but it's way off a mid-price DAC in audio performance. DACs worthy of matching with your Nirvanas should be in the range of a CI-Audio VDA-1 (stock, with power supply upgrade), or a highly modded ART DIO. I own the VDA-1, and have modded it moderately, bringing it to a pretty high level, imho.

[PSP]

Hi Martin,
Some thoughts on your post:
"perfect setup" would indeed be a never-ending quest.  But by tweaking, listening, and tweaking some more you can find you way to increasingly good, and then extremely good sound.  Just listen for a good long while before you tweak, then make a change and listen some more... don't be afraid to reverse a tweak that you don't like.  But if you move too fast or change too many things at once, you can get lost, frustrated, and then you could either give up or start spending a lot of money "fixing" "problems" at random.

Your amplification is in excellent shape, so the next place to attack is either the beginning of the audio chain (CDP) or at the end (speakers).  If your CDP has a digital coax output, I'd suggest that you consider an ART DI/O DAC.  When heavily modded, I understand that the DI/O is extremely good.  I've had mine (stock) for over a year, and someday I will do the mods, but--even though I am certain that it will sound a lot better when the mods are done--it sounds pretty good in stock form (except I upgraded the power supply...$19 Stancor).  The ART DI/O costs approx $100 (I bought one at $122, the other at $98 ) at  http://www.fullcompass.com.  I never could find the DI/O on their website, so I called them instead.  If you buy it, be sure to tell them that you want the 110 volt version... I almost bought the 220 volt version once.  

DI/O mods are described in detail at:  http://home.ca.inter.net/~cfraser/  then click on A.R.T. DI/O

Good luck, and enjoy the journey...
Peter

[Occam]

Iff'n yer gonna buy a DI/O, save some green and buy an Atari tabletop replacement PS from Hosfelt for $3.95, Part #56-518, works like a charm, and I couldn't tell the sonic diff between it and the Stancor.

http://www.hosfelt.com

Click on 'adapters' on the left, click on 7-13.7V AC Adapters, scroll down about half way to the Atari 9 VAC @ 3.4 AMP (31 vA) Adapter.


... and play with the adapters AC plug orientation; it changes the sound, it does likewise on the Stancor. Why?.... I ain't go'n there.

Regards,
Occam the Cheap

[Martin]

Ok
 It's not Saturday yet,
so I guess it's still naive questions week.
I know zero about DAC's or D I/O's...what are they, what do they do
and where in the signal path do they go?
 Sorry Occam I couldn't see the connection between
the Atari tabletop replacement PS from Hosfelt and the ART D I/O
(I looked at both). I'm sure there is one I'm just ignorant of it.
Bear with me guys...I'm still learning & I don't type fast.

Thanks
Martin

[Malcolm Fear]

Hi Martin
When you buy a cd player, or a DVD player, it consists of a transport (the spinny thing with a laser where the cd goes), and some electronics, part of which is a digital to analogue converter, also known as a DAC. Usually there is a compromise in the DAC section of most cd/DVD players.
You can buy/build a third party DAC which is usually better than the DAC supplied with the cd/DVD player. To connect a DAC, take the signal from "digital out" on the cd/DVD player. The DAC will have a pair of RCA sockets labelled "analogue out". These go to the pre amp.
Using an external DAC will therefore bypass the internal DAC inside the cd/DVD player.
a DIO is a brand of DAC that people buy and then start modifying. I have heard a modded DIO. I thought it was not that great.

Improvements
I would try isolating the cd/dvd player. I have mounted mine on a support shelf (made of Corian). This sits on a lightly inflated 16 inch bicycle innertube. Try a shelf made of a breadboard or MDF first sitting on a bicycle innertube. I found a great difference in this setup.
Try an AKSA GK-1 over a TLP. I have had both. The GK-1 is great.
I have a REGA Planet 2000 cd player. I have tried a couple of good DAC's. They certainly improve the REGA. I will wait for the AKSA DAC.

regards

[Martin]

Hi all!

Malcom...do you have to bypass the internal DAC or does the internal DAC pass its signal on to the external DAC?
I'll try the inner tube.

Occam...I now understand the connection between the two, duh....thanks.
The ps your refering to will work with the Art DI/O?


Peter...I going to try the Art DI/O...unmodded at first.
sounds like an inexpensive way to upgrade.

Thanks guys...
Martin

[Occam]

Martin,

The $4 Atari PS I mentioned is indeed a replacement ugrade for the wall wart power supply that comes with the DI/O. Sorry for the unnecessary use of of an acronym, its saves little time and confuses many, much like most of what I say...

[Malcolm Fear]

Re the DAC
A cd player has an output prior to its internal DAC. The signal then gotes through the internal DAC and then to the audio out rca plugs

[andyr]

The $1M Question.
As an ex-recording engineer questions like this always elicit a huge grin.  Not at you! No insult intended, but this is one of those questions that cannot be defnitively answered, although everyone seeks the answer.
There are many factors that go into the final sound, quite apart from the artist!
1. We have a forum devoted to discussing the pros and cons of often minor modifications to equipment in our Hi-Fis and talk of huge differences. However, we rarely talk about the sou ...

Hi Tinker,

I see U R in good 'ol Melbourne - I wouldn't mind getting together for coffee/beer/whatever, sometime and hearing your opinion on a topic which I am curious about ... but do not seem to be able to do anything about solving.

I refer to recordings made which come out in 'reverse absolute polarity' because the recording engineer has been careless about making sure his recording chain doesn't invert polarity.  This has a deleterious effect on what you hear from your speakers.

Have U read "The Wood Effect" by R.C. Johnsen?

Regards,

Andy

[Tinker]

I see U R in good 'ol Melbourne - I wouldn't mind getting together for coffee/beer/whatever, sometime and hearing your opinion on a topic which I am curious about ... but do not seem to be able to do anything about solving.

I refer to recordings made which come out in 'reverse absolute polarity' because the recording engineer has been careless about making sure his recording chain doesn't invert polarity.  This has a deleterious effect on what you hear from your speakers.

Have U read "The Wood Effect" by R.C. Johnsen?

Sure. I like to meet other audio folk when time permits...

Absolute polarity is a problem I admit, though I personally only own about two recordings that have this problem. A real problem with really poor multitrack recordings is when a or one critical source in the mix contains phase anomalies. Not much to be done there.

Phase inversion is hard to achieve in single-ended systems without adding the kind of cicuitry most people go single-ended to avoid. This is part of the reason I built a DAC with a phase invert, which I never really needed and hence have moved on from. Depending on what DAC you own it can be as simple as flying in a high-speed XOR gate into the decoder output. More later.

I have not read the Wood effect book, but am familiar with the concept. A whole mess of interesting phenomena arise from the differential rarefactionability and compressability of air, as well as assymetries in the mechanical couplings of the ear. I became very interested in theses phase issues when I began my PhD. I was looking into 3D sound localisation and building acoustic models of the head... A very long story indeeed, and a lot of great work has been done on this topic by some fine researchers.

Anyway, this could become a huge discussion. We'll speak more later, perhaps meet some time.
Cheers,
T.

[Martin]

Hi all.
 My current DVD player has a 24bit / 96kHz D/A Convertor.
The Art DI/O advertises the same.
It doesn't seem to be a plus to purchase one.
Are there other specs I should be compairing?
No sense spending money where it won't help.
 Thanks
Martin

[Tinker]

Hi all.
 My current DVD player has a 24bit / 96kHz D/A Convertor.
The Art DI/O advertises the same.
It doesn't seem to be a plus to purchase one.
Are there other specs I should be compairing?

This is a little academic since a CD is a 16-bit 44.1kHz source. How a DVD player streams this data to the 24bit DAC has a huge impact on the sound, and unfortunately the DSP side of things is one of the main piece of information you won't get from a manufacturer.

The main specs to be intrested in is jitter performance, distortion profile and low-level linearity.

I would research the DAC long and hard before purchasing anything. As you rightly say, it is not worth throwing money at it especially when your DVD player is likely to be adequate in most respects.

I hope to put up a whitepaper on DAC technology on the Aspen website in the next month or so. This should lay out the main issues in design, although it won't exactly say what to go out and buy.  

There is of course the AKSADAC currently under development...

T.