[Aether Audio]

Friends,

I thought I'd open a little discussion here.  At the present count, we have to build at least 7 pairs of Mundorf "Ultimate" external crossovers and numerous lengths of R.A.Smith Limited's (my own) proprietary "Zero Resonance" cables to go with them.  That, at least for myself, gives one cause for reflection.

When you consider that our "top-of-the-line" Revelation MR-1 MKIIs retail for $12,000.00/pair, the cost of these upgrades and cables reflect a very significant percentage of the original purchase price.  That should cause anyone to wonder - "Why in the world would someone spend that kind of money on a speaker system of such relatively modest price?"

It would only seem reasonable to spend such sums on speakers that come in at no less than say...$20K or more.  That suggests 2 things to my mind.  They are:

1)  Our product is better and has far greater potential than the "world at large" is aware of and...
2) They are underpriced - especially the larger models.

As for myself, I've always known that both of the above were true to some degree, but only recently have I begun to discover to what degree.  Even still, I have yet to experience the full "revelation" of these facts as I have not heard what effect either the new Ultimate crossover or the Zero Resonance/Mundorf cables will have. 

Karsten is the only one in the world at this present time that knows for sure - and he hasn't heard the cables yet either.  Having heard the effect of the "Standard" Mundorf crossover alone has left me with no doubts whatsoever that he is right "on track" though.  I can scarcely imagine.   He just told me yesterday that he had to put a preamp back in the chain as the resolution was just "too much."  He said it was incredible on good recordings but he has discovered that he owns relatively few now that actually "cut the muster."  Reducing the resolution just a tad by inserting a preamp makes the lesser recordings more enjoyable.  I asked him if he was sure it was actually due to the recordings and what it was that he was hearing.  He assured me that it was recording based issues.  He said that he was able to hear things like massed vocals were the result of over-dubs and not really "live."  He also said he could hear sounds in the background of the recording that distracted from the music.  WOW! - We need to get these things into the hands of more engineers if that's the case.

Anyway, I can only imagine what the "no-owner/non-hearer" of SP Tech product must be thinking.  I have little doubt that some of you guys out there that have been poking around here on our circle must be saying to yourselves that the customers we have that are purchasing these upgrades must be a little whacked.  I'd tell you "no...they're not" - but what else would you expect me to say?

There are a lot of reasons for someone to think that spending such sums on upgrading our speakers is not a wise thing to do.  Obviously, we don't have the marketing (yet) that makes SP Tech a "household name."  That begs the question of whether or not this is a wise move from an investment standpoint, as the re-sale value probably won't command the prices other, more well known names would.  Then there's the question of everybody's hearing abilities.  Are we all imagining these things?  I, for one, until recently never believed capacitors and wire made much if any difference.  I can well imagine that there are many more of you out there that are like I used to be.

So...I'd be interested in everybody's comments - especially you guys that have been watching but have rarely if ever posted here before.  What do you think?  Are we all nuts or what?

-Bob

[shep]

Ok here goes nothing  aa Since this question (which is pretty loaded Bob!) is begging to be answered. The trouble is nobody but K. can answer it, yet! Actually I don't know what the question even is to be honest. If I were in a grudging cynical mood (which I'm not by the way) one answer would be that you are a very skillfull salesman and are playing this audience very well indeed. Since I don't believe that to be the case, it sounds like you have found something, almost be chance, which has set your imagination and audiophile senses on fire. Hopefully for you and those who can afford it, this is going to be a milestone acheivement, one that will make other speaker builders in this price class and above, rather distressed. Always and ever, we need the famous "reference" by which to measure our needs and desires. Have you created it? I hope so. BUT, speaking for myself alone, I'm not sure I could take such a degree of perfection! What would happen to my ceaseless hunger/quest for ever better? to say nothing of the thankless task of trying to mate this wonder to source and amplification to meet its standard and make it sing. As daft as it may sound, something called modesty would probably hold me back from actually buying these (did you ever hear this out of the mouth of a die-hard, totally neurotic audiophile?)
Now having vented my gaseous state, my curiosity is totally out of control and I tremble with anticipation for the first and second and third first-hand report of this breakthru product of yours.
Respectfully (and sincerely nuts) Shep

[Aether Audio]

Shep,

If I were in a grudging cynical mood (which I'm not by the way) one answer would be that you are a very skillfull salesman and are playing this audience very well indeed. Since I don't believe that to be the case, it sounds like you have found something, almost be chance, which has set your imagination and audiophile senses on fire.

Thanks for not taking the cynical route.  To be perfectly honest, you nailed it.  I am totally freaked by two aspects here.  First, that these crossover parts (and now wire - of all things) really do make that much of a difference.  You gotta remember...I'm the nerdy engineering type.  I have always based everything I do on solid, quantifiable engineering and science.  If it can't be measured then it's in your imagination - or so I thought - and for a very long time. 

Just ask Double-Ugly...he'll tell you.  Heck, we had a big blowout once over an issue of speaker wire and its use inside our enclosures.  We patched everything up just fine though.  Even afterwards and for a long time I still didn't buy into the "wire thing."  In fact, I picked the Cardas Litz wire we've been using for some time now mostly because I could actually "measure" a difference of about 1dB out beyond 20KHz.  To be honest, I never really noticed much if any sonic difference though - at least not enough to say..."Oh yeah...that's better."

So all this stuff has my brain twisting up in knots.  You see...I HAVE to understand why this stuff makes a difference.  Call it an "obsession" - if you will. 

The only relief lately from this nagging pain in my head is that I'm beginning to see things on a much deeper level now.  And I'll guarantee you all something.  There IS solid science behind this stuff.  It's not "voodoo engineering" or snake oil.  Well, some of it probably is but I'm jumping the fence.  I don't care what the rest of the engineers in the world think or say about me.  I refuse to believe that all of the audiophiles in the world that claim to hear these things are all "high" on their over-active imaginations.  Statistically that's impossible and I have dear and trusted friends that I KNOW have exceptional hearing and can hear these things.  Karsten and Double-Ugly are two guys I trust completely in that regard and everything they have ever told me up until now I have ended up hearing myself - often to my chagrin.

The second thing that's freaking me out is that now...I'm hearing it for myself as well.  And not only me but my son Jason (who has better hearing than I do) and my partner Mike too.  When we listened to these modest "Standard" crossovers (the ones that now come stock with the speakers), we were all blown away.  I've listened to our speakers for years now and I have heard various improvements when I changed the crossover topology, but I was always still using all of the same basic brands of parts.  And when I heard those improvements, it all made perfect scientific sense...so no big surprise on my part. 

But now...I'm hearing things I never heard before and all we did was change brands of parts.  We were using darn good ones before too.  Yeah, there turns out that the woofer coil may have been at issue, but we've been using Sonicaps for a long time now besides.  We switched from Solens to the Sonicaps a couple of years ago and to be honest, I never really heard much difference...and I didn't expect to either.

Then we switched to these Mundorf parts per Karsten's urging and I still didn't expect much.  We only purchased the "affordable" ones on the first go around, so I figured they'd be pretty much on par with the Sonicaps.  Well, I'm here to tell you otherwise now!

So yes...my audiophile senses are "burning."  And my "scientific brain" is about fried as a result of that fire.  "Hey Ma, look at me...I'm an audiophile tweak-o nut now."

-Bob

[Karsten]

He just told me yesterday that he had to put a preamp back in the chain as the resolution was just "too much."  He said it was incredible on good recordings but he has discovered that he owns relatively few now that actually "cut the muster." 

Bob,

Well don't get me wrong on this one, it may be misinterpreted. When working on the speakers I want to "get the front end out of the way" so I can hear what is happening. This means the cleaner the better, which is not always the best compromise for enjoying music. Unless the speakers are used for mastering purpose etc. it is beneficial to trade off a tiny bit of resolution which makes all, but the most terrible recordings, sound great, good or acceptable. It is defenitely NOT the kind of presentation which limits you to a few audiophile recordings.

I can say that the speakers are easier now than ever before to mate with amplifiers, even some which I pretty much discarded before sounds good now. I'm not saying that all amplifiers are equally good or sound the same because they each have their own signature, more or less, but no doubt that the speakers are an easy load now.

Karsten

[Bill Baker]

"Hey Ma, look at me...I'm an audiophile tweak-o nut now."

 See Bob.... first it was tube amps....now everything else. You now have the disease that has no cure. Don't fight it, you won't win but don't worry, it's not terminal

[Bill Baker]

  I, for one, until recently never believed capacitors and wire made much if any difference.  I can well imagine that there are many more of you out there that are like I used to be.


So...I'd be interested in everybody's comments - especially you guys that have been watching but have rarely if ever posted here before.  What do you think?  Are we all nuts or what?

 Are we all nuts? I would have to say no. Most AC readers already know I am a believer in what properly chosen, upper end components can do for a given product. I have always found the SP speakers to be very impressive with a unique mind behind the design. Add into the equation these top notch crossover comonents and things can only get better.

 We all know there has to be some science and theory behind any given design but that's only the beginning. Measurements will not tell us about the sonic signature or level of emotion the end result will provide. How do you measure emotion? This is how so many manufactures are able to "voice" their products. Oil, Teflon, poly, etc., all have a different characteristic that will effect the signature of a product. Yes, I know not everyone agrees but if Bob built a pair of speakers using $1.00 Bennic capacitors and another using the top line Mundorf, I think we would hear the difference 

 

[Aether Audio]

Bill,

You now have the disease that has no cure. Don't fight it, you won't win but don't worry, it's not terminal.

Thanks!  That only makes me feel a little better though.

We all know there has to be some science and theory behind any given design but that's only the beginning. Measurements will not tell us about the sonic signature or level of emotion the end result will provide.

I have to take issue with you on that one though.  I believe that anything that interacts with this physical universe, must, by default, take on some aspect of that same physicality itself.  I don't believe in a type of "magic" that can't be detected and ultimately quantified by scientific means and apparatus - and I REFUSE to accept otherwise!  Science may not yet possess either the means or apparatus to do so at a given point in history, but it has at least the potential of ultimately doing so.

For instance - and this is the ultimate in the extreme - if "ghosts" or "spirits" really exist and they interact with the physical world, there must ultimately be a method of detecting their presence and proving their existence.  "Ghost Hunters" and the lot are only scratching the "tip of the iceburg" - if at all - in their attempts.

That being the case, I believe all the "effects" these various components manifest can ultimately be detected and quantified by laboratory apparatus and methods.  I even believe the right tools already exist.  When the day comes that I can afford such tools (by the nature of their sensitivity and complexity, they are quite expensive), I am going to make it my personal mission to do so. 

It may (would) take someone else that is trained in the area of neuroscience to interpret the results and relate them to any associated emotion, but I guarantee it can ultimately be done.  Although, I'll have to admit...that would be one hell of an undertaking!

-Bob

[mixsit]

I know very well that variations in my perception from day to (or even hour to hour or less for that matter) greatly exceed the amount of sonic change I can create and reliably detect by changing a parameter.

I would like to know how one, at the finest level of difference, short of long term sampling (comparison) or rapid AB, or ABX, keep separate which is the true change.

[mixsit]

On reflection... I hope no one took this as anything other than the honest desire for some input it is. I feel like I peed in the pool or something.

The question could just as easily gone here.. Lots of over lap.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40176.0

[Karsten]

Mixit, of course you are right. Especially subtle changes/improvements can be difficult to detect and interpret correctly. However some changes are of a magnitude where it is difficult to be really fooled. Otherwise A/B comparison or using unbiased bi-standers are required.
It is also important to listen to the changes over a good period of time before taking any real conclusions.

Karsten

[Russell Dawkins]

As suggestible as we are, I find quick A/B comparisons to be potentially misleading, unless the signal is steady state noise, or unless the strands of sonic characteristics are mentally unravelled such that one aspect at a time is being compared. For example, I can compare tonality, texture and imaging characteristics, but not at the same time.

Music changes too frequently for us not to attribute those changes to the wrong causative factor in this case the DUT rather than the music itself.

My understanding is that this is caused by the same mental mechanism that is constantly striving to make order out of chaos, or recognize patterns - even where they don't exist.

I have noticed that subtle sonic differences reveal themselves only after long period of exposure to one sound. Even then, the perception of difference can be fleeting at the point of change.

I have thought long and hard about this and as a mixing and mastering engineer sometimes spend hours on end engaged in just this process of having to make decision after decision based on my perception of whether one sound is "better" than another, and if so deciding exactly what to do to that sound to improve it.

[Karsten]

Russell,

I agree with you that it is difficult to evaluate multiple parameters simultaneously in an A/B comparison, but I don't see this as a real problem, but of course I'm not doing the same work as you do.

To me, the most important is to put myself into sort of a relaxed mental state while listening/evaluating, as soon as I'm stressed or going into the analytical listening mode it feels like the "pattern recognition syndrome" is taking over, which is no good to me.

Karsten

[Aether Audio]

Wayne & Russell,

I can only respond based on my own experiences as of late.  What Karsten is hearing is between his ears only.  You both know darn well that as an engineer, I know all about A/B, blind listening and all the rest.  Anybody got a spare $1M or so...we'll put together one for ya.

The fact is, your very livelihood (well, to some degree anyway) depends on your clients "trusting" you, your technical abilities and ultimately, your hearing.  How many times have you botched something during a take that can't be re-done.  You've had to "fix it in the mix" and, although you may have been sweating bullets, you did and your client never noticed.  Whew...pulled that one off!

Don't tell me you haven't 'cause I've been there.  If you've been working any length of time at all - it's happened.  And the fact is, it's a testament to 2 things.  First, your client's inexperience and second...your own hearing ability and talent.  There isn't a professional on the planet that wouldn't consider your getting away with it as anything other than a feather in your cap.

Why?  Because you knew what to do to fix it and had the ability to hear the difference.  You had just the right combination of hearing and talent to make something that would have been a tragedy...paletable.  The odds are, you'll be the only one that ever knows too...unless you tell.

Now how is that?  Why can you tell right where that mistake is and almost nobody else ever will?  The answer is obvious on one level - you were the one that made the mistake.  But...I'll bet you listened to that track dozens of times and made many adjustments before you were satisfied that it might pass by un-noticed by the public.  Repetition is the key...listening over and over to the same thing.  Sooner or later the brain locks in and figures it out.

Of course I'll be first to admit that with regards to frequency, hearing memory sucks.  I had a Crown EQ2, 11-band parametric EQ with high and low pass shelving AND with adjustable hinge points -at 18 years of age!  You know the drill and I don't even want to think about all the wasted hours.  I've mixed both live and studio sound, used/owned compressors, limiters, effects of all sorts - you name it.  Why the heck do you think I built those darn Timepieces to begin with?!!!  The same reason you bought them.  They're MONITORS!!!  It's only by a twist of fate that these audiophile guys even begin to get it.

But the one thing they DO have is the same as those of us that are experienced have OR ANYBODY HAS...ACUTE DYNAMIC HEARING SENSITIVITY!  You don't need a PHD from http://www.fullsail.com/ to have a natural, in-born ability to hear subtle changes in dynamics.  It's the dynamic changes that tell you a noise is the TV set or... someone dropped a glass in the kitchen...or broke a window and is coming to rape your wife and kill your children!  We need it for survival and it is more acute than any other sense.

I guarantee your eyes don't have 120dB of resolution - neither does your sense of touch or taste or smell.  You may be deaf beyond 8kHz but you can still tell if a sound is real or recorded.  And it is in the realm of micro-dynamics that the things Karsten and (now) I are hearing.

Specifically in my case - I'm lazy and the shop sucks to sit and listen in for very long.  I don't have a system at home because my house is tore up from re-modeling.  So...because I don't really care to spend all day out in the shop where it's almost always chilly and listen for hours on end (and  don't have the time anyway) I listen to the same 2 discs over and over and over - every time and now it's been for years.

Those 2 discs are:  Dianna Krall "Girl in the Other Room" and a CD that one of our first customers burnt for me.  "Horsehead" made me a disc that has different cuts from David Grisman, Eleanor McEvoy, Nickel Creek, Diana Krall and even that famous Chinese Drum track (whatever their name is).

Yeah, once in a while I do a reality check on other stuff too - but I always go back to them.  Why? Not because they're "perfect" and certainly not because I like them that much (in fact, I'm about as sick as you can get of them), but because doing so has made them "constants."  If something changes - I hear it.  Since almost forever I thought the Dianna Krall disc had an overloaded mic pre at times - the honk in her voice would get so bad.  With the new "standard" crossover - "all gone."  The FR is as flat as ever so don't even bother going there.

Then there's the issue of hearing brushes on drums - that's what they sound like now - distinct and separate from everything else rather than being "merged."  I always thought that it was how they were miked before and "frequency masking/precedence" was at work.  Same thing with voices...now I can count them individually...sounded like just a "massed chorus" before.  When I'm hearing things on those recordings that I NEVER heard before, well...I'll be nice and NOT tell you what you can do with your ABX switch!  I've ABX'd those recording until I'm nauseous.

So how's that coming from a "pro."  Well, the only difference is that in the cornfields of Indiana, you can't make a living at it.  But other than that, I use to be the guy every band in town called when they needed advice (for free of course).  And I'm telling you other pros...this stuff is for real, it ain't a bunch of crap, I know enough to know what I'm hearing and I ain't deaf.  How far you can go with it I don't know, but at this point I've heard enough to keep my mind open and not dismiss anything until I hear it for myself.

SO THERE!    That and 99 cents will get you a cup of coffee at Speedway.

-Bob

PS.  I'm not beating up on you guys.  I've been fighting with myself over this stuff for a while now.  I'm biting my nails back to the bone waiting for the day I can prove it scientifically.

[Karsten]

The real test here is of course customer satisfaction. I'm really looking forward to hear the feed back on both standard upgrades and the ultimate.
I'll pretty much guarantee that the improvements are quite noticeable, even without golden ears or the like.

Karsten