Squeezebox Help

Bigfish · « **on:** 15 Apr 2007, 09:36 pm »

I have been addicted to AudioCircle since I ordered the Odyssey Mono Extreme SEs and Candela last month. It would seem that many on this board favorably compare the sound of a modified Squeezebox to that of a high end CDP. This weekend I purchased a 330GB Western Digital external HD from Sam's ($130.00) and have begun the process of ripping all of my CDs. If the sound produced from a Modified Squeezebox truly rivals a high-end CDP then the convenience alone make the purchase seem like a no brainer.

Currently, I do not own a DAC and I guess I have a choice: Purchase a DAC and use it with my NAD C542 CDP or Purchase a Squeezebox and have it modified to run for at least awhile without a DAC. I know I will eventually purchase a Squeezebox, it is really a matter of DAC or Squeezebox First. If you were considering these options which way would you go first and if I chose the Squeezebox Option First which modifications would you recommend?

Thanks,

Ken

DSK · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Apr 2007, 09:56 pm »

Ken,
Save your DAC money. Get the Bolder full analog mods (and digital mods if you want to keep open the possibility of using a DAC later) and I think you'll find you don't need the external DAC. This is what I did and it outperformed my ModWright modded P-1A/P-3A/Monolithic combo used with Sony SCD-XA777ES as transport.
Although many circle members do use an external DAC with their SB, the great majority of them (from my reading anyway) seem to have simply 'assumed' that a DAC will be required and therefore didn't get the analog mods. The stock analog stage isn't great so most people just assume that the best approach is to get the digital only mods and a DAC. I have only seen 2 or 3 posters compare the Bolder analog modded SB to an external DAC and each of them preferred it without the external DAC.
If you really do want to try an external DAC later, getting both the analog and digital mods from Bolder will enable you to do this and the digital mods won't cost you much more when purchased with the analog mods. Good Luck!

TomS · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 Apr 2007, 10:18 pm »

I agree completely with DSK. I'd suggest doing both the analog and digital mods at the same time and passing on Bybees for now as they add a lot to the cost. Then, get yourself a decent low cost linear power supply like the Elpacs and listen to the analog outs for awhile. Once mine settled in I sold a very good CDP/DAC and never looked back.

jrebman · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 Apr 2007, 10:36 pm »

I'll echo what dsk and Tom said. Go for the full mods minus the bybees to start -- meaning analog and digital, with the Sonicap Platinum output coupling caps and maybe even the WBT copper/gold RCAs, and then get one of the modded elpac power supplies.

Tom, I see something about a Burson buffer in your sig -- how's that working out for you?

-- Jim

TomS · « **Reply #4 on:** 15 Apr 2007, 10:58 pm »

Quote from: jrebman on 15 Apr 2007, 10:36 pm

Tom, I see something about a Burson buffer in your sig -- how's that working out for you?

-- Jim

Jim,

Yes, I have the Burson. I'm still playing around with the combinations right now. My setup is a little weird because I have the Squeezebox2, Burson, Sonic Euphoria PLC, and the Merlin SuperBAM in the loop to the amps. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of IC's and power cords to make it all work. I am still waiting on one more pair of Gregg's IC's and another Black Sand Silver Ref MK V to be able to test to my satisfaction.

I found the Burson still didn't give quite enough gain to go solo with the BEL 1001's, but worked fine when I moved the Odyssey Mono Extreme SE's in their place. They have considerably more gain which worked well with the SB2/Burson. The Odyssey's are still breaking in so I'm not really ready to say too much about the Burson all by itself. More to come later.

Tom

zybar · « **Reply #5 on:** 15 Apr 2007, 11:39 pm »

Quote from: DSK on 15 Apr 2007, 09:56 pm

Ken,
Save your DAC money. Get the Bolder full analog mods (and digital mods if you want to keep open the possibility of using a DAC later) and I think you'll find you don't need the external DAC. This is what I did and it outperformed my ModWright modded P-1A/P-3A/Monolithic combo used with Sony SCD-XA777ES as transport.
Although many circle members do use an external DAC with their SB, the great majority of them (from my reading anyway) seem to have simply 'assumed' that a DAC will be required and therefore didn't get the analog mods. The stock analog stage isn't great so most people just assume that the best approach is to get the digital only mods and a DAC. I have only seen 2 or 3 posters compare the Bolder analog modded SB to an external DAC and each of them preferred it without the external DAC.
If you really do want to try an external DAC later, getting both the analog and digital mods from Bolder will enable you to do this and the digital mods won't cost you much more when purchased with the analog mods. Good Luck!

Great advice from DSK!

I had my previous SB2 with just the digital mods and it fed a highly modified TacT 2.2x. Now I have a full blown analog mod SB2 with gold bybees and it is the best digital front end I have had in my system.

George

denjo · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 12:57 am »

I am a recent SB3 convert and would agree that the stock analog output is just "so-so". Through the SB3's digital output, I have tried it feeding the (1) Altmann Attraction DAC (with cheap 12 v convertor); and (2) Paradisea (version 1, not +) DAC. There was a vast improvement over the SB3's analog stage, with the Altmann Attraction sounding best and the Paradisea, second. It has been quite well documented that the digital out of a stock SB3 into an excellent DAC will sound better than expensive CDPs. There is one other thing about the Altmann Attraction DAC that makes it quite immune to the effects of cables, especially when the JISCO function is activated. Once you feed the Altmann with a good, clean power source, I believe that this will bring the SB3 to a whole new plain. Once you feed the SB3 with a good, clean PS, you move up the ladder. On the topic of PS, the linear power supply is definitely better than the wallwart. My limited research (and I was hoping to elicit more discussion here about the shunt regulated PS vs linear PS, alas without much success!) shows that the shunt regulated PS will bring a whole new dimension to the sonic capabilities of the SB3. I will be taking deliever of the shunt regulated PS soon and hope to post some observations here by and by. Whether the digital modded SB3 or the digital and analog SB3 will sound better is anyone's guess. There is also the question of cost-performance, and it has not been easy in this forum sometimes to discern from the varied views whether the cost justifies the performance. In my order of priorities to make the SB3 reach its true sonic potential, I would say, reads thus:
1. Get a reasonably good DAC;
2. Upgrade SB3 PS;
3. If DAC runs on DC, upgrade PS. If not, upgrade power cable feeding DAC.

I have tried a Bybee (silver) connected to digital (RCA) input of DAC but only experienced a slight improvement, greater ease, fluidity in the music. Using the Altmann and the Bybee (silver), I would be hard put to find a difference!! This DAC seems to simply demand of you the best power supply, cabling and purifiers don't seem to work at all once the JISCO is activated.

Hope this ramble helps!

Best Regards
Dennis

DSK · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 01:18 am »

Dennis, some good info there. It seems we all agree that the stock analog output stage is ordinary and that a PS upgrade is a large part of the benefit of modding a SB (when I talk about SB mods I just assumed that people would understand this includes the PS upgrade). I think we'd also all agree that adding an external DAC (probably almost any DAC) will beat the stock analog output stage.

However, I'm not sure I understand how you can suggest the external DAC as the number one priority to improve the SB's sound when you haven't (if I read your post correctly) modified the analog output stage (which gives much better performance in the same way the external DAC does) and compared it to the external DAC? Comparing the external DAC to the stock output stage is virtually pointless.

I'm not going to suggest that there are no DACs out there that could beat the modified analog output of the SB, but they are likely to be very expensive indeed and this kind of kills your proposal of the DAC being the best bang for the buck improvement.

I agree too that the Bybees be left out unless you are after a no holds barred approach and money is no object.

tanchiro58 · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 01:49 am »

Hi Ken,

Do not waste too much money like other suggestions. If you believe me you should search to ask for opinions and/or suggestions of people who have owned their SB3 and PS modded by themselves. You will save a lot of cash to purchase a decent DAC like Paradisea or Renaissance II and a good digital IC.

I bought myself the MHDT Renaissance II and modded it myself. Then friend of mine had suggested me to replace my modded Denon 2900 with SB3. In a first couple weeks I did not think that SB3 can beat Denon 2900 but I was wrong. After that I have never given up to find an affordable PS to mod and find more idea to mod the SB3. My friend F100, who also has Stratos monoblocs extreme SE, and we had to agree that after modifying our SB3 and its PS we bring up our systems to another higher level. We did compare to another mods digital and analog SB3 we like our modded SB3 very much. There will be some more better ideas of modifying the DAC on the way. Good luck.

PS: I have the Bolder mod Elpac and Basic Rev.1 on sale too. If you are interested let me know. Thanks.

Turnandcough · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 02:06 am »

Quote from: denjo on 16 Apr 2007, 12:57 am

I will be taking deliever of the shunt regulated PS soon and hope to post some observations here by and by.

Could you please provide specifics for shunt PS (model, supplier, etc)
Thanks,
Mike

daz_bike · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 02:22 am »

TomS,

I know what you mean about additional cords (IC's and Power) with the Burson.

What you need is to put the SB2 (modified) and Burson into a single box.

No IC's, RCA connectors and only a single IEC for the input power. I am having such a unit built up now. I am in New Zealand BTW.

Regards

denjo · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 02:31 am »

Quote from: DSK on 16 Apr 2007, 01:18 am

Dennis, some good info there. It seems we all agree that the stock analog output stage is ordinary and that a PS upgrade is a large part of the benefit of modding a SB (when I talk about SB mods I just assumed that people would understand this includes the PS upgrade). I think we'd also all agree that adding an external DAC (probably almost any DAC) will beat the stock analog output stage.

However, I'm not sure I understand how you can suggest the external DAC as the number one priority to improve the SB's sound when you haven't (if I read your post correctly) modified the analog output stage (which gives much better performance in the same way the external DAC does) and compared it to the external DAC? Comparing the external DAC to the stock output stage is virtually pointless.

I'm not going to suggest that there are no DACs out there that could beat the modified analog output of the SB, but they are likely to be very expensive indeed and this kind of kills your proposal of the DAC being the best bang for the buck improvement.

I agree too that the Bybees be left out unless you are after a no holds barred approach and money is no object.

DSK
Thanks for your post.
When you modify the analog stage of the SB3 you are effectively adding a whole new DAC albeit within the SB3 rather than externally via an independent unit. What I am suggesting is this - rather than mod the analog stage of the SB3 (which is not cheap), forget about the analog stage altogether, take the digital out (which is fairly decent to begin with) and feed the digital information into a good DAC, which can be had for about USD 500 (without excluding other decent DACS in this price range, the Paradisea is something I have experienced and can vouchsafe for an immediate and discernible improvement). Like Tanchiro, I am more inclined to go the route of an external DAC and a good PS for the SB3 - without breaking the bank in the process! I am suggesting there are cheaper alternatives available out there that will make the SB3 sing!

Best Regards
Dennis

TomS · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 02:31 am »

Quote from: daz_bike on 16 Apr 2007, 02:22 am

TomS,

I know what you mean about additional cords (IC's and Power) with the Burson.

What you need is to put the SB2 (modified) and Burson into a single box.

No IC's, RCA connectors and only a single IEC for the input power. I am having such a unit built up now. I am in New Zealand BTW.

Regards

Yes, absolutely!!! The SB2, naked Burson, and Ultimate MK II power supply all in one enclosure would be really sweet. I believe Wayne has looked into the same sort of thing, but it takes time, money, and a lot of trial and error to do it right. If I could find a clean way to re-mount the VF display so it looked professional I might have a go at it myself. Definitely let us know how yours turns out.

bpape · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 02:47 am »

I have a SB2 with the Boulder Basic Rev1 Power supply driving a Paradesia DAC. I have in my system with many others present, compared this combination to a Boulder SB with the analog mods. The results: I'll be getting my SB done with the Boulder analog mods. Now, in fairness, I have done no mods to the Paradesia other than swapping out the stock tube for either a WE396A or Red Bank 2C51 (good improvments by doing this also).

Don't get me wrong. The SB/w PS -> Paradesia is a very very large step up from a stock SB and compares very favorably with some very expensive CDP's - but the analog mods are better - sorry (and no more expensive than a $500 DAC, actually cheaper) and you don't need to worry about a digital cable, another power cord, etc.

Bryan

DSK · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 02:48 am »

Quote from: denjo on 16 Apr 2007, 02:31 am

Quote from: DSK on 16 Apr 2007, 01:18 am
Dennis, some good info there. It seems we all agree that the stock analog output stage is ordinary and that a PS upgrade is a large part of the benefit of modding a SB (when I talk about SB mods I just assumed that people would understand this includes the PS upgrade). I think we'd also all agree that adding an external DAC (probably almost any DAC) will beat the stock analog output stage.

However, I'm not sure I understand how you can suggest the external DAC as the number one priority to improve the SB's sound when you haven't (if I read your post correctly) modified the analog output stage (which gives much better performance in the same way the external DAC does) and compared it to the external DAC? Comparing the external DAC to the stock output stage is virtually pointless.

I'm not going to suggest that there are no DACs out there that could beat the modified analog output of the SB, but they are likely to be very expensive indeed and this kind of kills your proposal of the DAC being the best bang for the buck improvement.

I agree too that the Bybees be left out unless you are after a no holds barred approach and money is no object.

DSK
Thanks for your post.
When you modify the analog stage of the SB3 you are effectively adding a whole new DAC albeit within the SB3 rather than externally via an independent unit. What I am suggesting is this - rather than mod the analog stage of the SB3 (which is not cheap), forget about the analog stage altogether, take the digital out (which is fairly decent to begin with) and feed the digital information into a good DAC, which can be had for about USD 500 (without excluding other decent DACS in this price range, the Paradisea is something I have experienced and can vouchsafe for an immediate and discernible improvement). Like Tanchiro, I am more inclined to go the route of an external DAC and a good PS for the SB3 - without breaking the bank in the process! I am suggesting there are cheaper alternatives available out there that will make the SB3 sing!

Best Regards
Dennis

Hi Dennis, thanks for the clarification. I can understand your reasoning but don't agree with it. We agree that the PS upgrade is a 'must'. Where we disagree is on cost and whether a $500 DAC will outperform the SB analog mods.
I have not heard the Paradisea DAC, but have heard the ModWright modded P-1A/P-3A/Monolithic PS combo, Bel Canto DAC2, MF etc. IMHO, the analog modded SB was superior. This is why I suggest that it would take an exceptional DAC (likely very expensive) to clearly beat the analog modded SB.

As for cost, the Bolder analog mods are $375 (no Bybees). The Paradisea DAC is $500 + decent power cord + decent digital cable. You are getting up toward double the cost and you also have to find rack space and another outlet to plug into (hopefully isolated from the other components). So, I don't think the external DAC is the value proposition and I'm not convinced it would outperform the analog modded SB.

All good debate

jrebman · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 02:52 am »

Quote from: TomS on 16 Apr 2007, 02:31 am

Yes, absolutely!!! The SB2, naked Burson, and Ultimate MK II power supply all in one enclosure would be really sweet. I believe Wayne has looked into the same sort of thing, but it takes time, money, and a lot of trial and error to do it right. If I could find a clean way to re-mount the VF display so it looked professional I might have a go at it myself. Definitely let us know how yours turns out.

Tom,

Thanks for your earlier reply regardig the burson -- and this is exactly why I asked.

I'll be working on just such a thing as soon as I can get a few other projects finished, and then there's the money thing

As for the display mounting, that's about the only part I'll outsource -- I will probably end up having a local machine shop make me a special mounting bracket/bezel and then mill out the front of the chassis I want to use to take this bracket. It will be a project for sure.

-- Jim

denjo · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 03:21 am »

DSK
My point of reference was the price of the full monty analog mods plus Bybee purifiers. Also, don't forget to factor in the cost of the PS upgrade which is USD 750 for the Ultimate! Also, many external DACs allow for at least RCA and optical (with some even offering BNC or USB). This allows those with a cheap CDP/DVD player to share the DACs benefit, something the SB3 analog mods cannot do.

As a matter of interest, what PS are you using with the SB3?

I share your sentiment that this is all in good debate! Its good for others to know the various options, evaluate thse for themselves and make and informed decision.

Best Regards
Dennis

DSK · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 03:37 am »

Quote from: denjo on 16 Apr 2007, 03:21 am

DSK
My point of reference was the price of the full monty analog mods plus Bybee purifiers. Also, don't forget to factor in the cost of the PS upgrade which is USD 750 for the Ultimate! Also, many external DACs allow for at least RCA and optical (with some even offering BNC or USB). This allows those with a cheap CDP/DVD player to share the DACs benefit, something the SB3 analog mods cannot do.

As a matter of interest, what PS are you using with the SB3?

I share your sentiment that this is all in good debate! Its good for others to know the various options, evaluate thse for themselves and make and informed decision.

Best Regards
Dennis

No, the cost of the PS is a wipe as you would get this whether you were using the analog output or digital output of the SB. I am using the Bolder Deluxe PS (no longer available) which was approx half the cost of the latest Statement PS. I also have an earlier version of the analog mods (no Platinum bypasses). However, even with these 'limitations' this solution was good enough to see off the external DACs. The latest analog mods and Statement PS would no doubt make the gap even wider.

I see that bpape has chimed in and actually compared the Paradisea to the analog modded SB and found the analog modded SB to be the better performer. Again, this is why I keep saying that the modded SB is the better value proposition and only uber DACs may provide a step up, though at great cost.

DSK · « **Reply #18 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 03:41 am »

Quote from: denjo on 16 Apr 2007, 03:21 am

...Also, many external DACs allow for at least RCA and optical (with some even offering BNC or USB). This allows those with a cheap CDP/DVD player to share the DACs benefit, something the SB3 analog mods cannot do....

Dennis, we are talking about squeezing out the most performance we can here. Why would we have a crap CD/DVD player sitting in our high end rig?

AliG · « **Reply #19 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 03:57 am »

Quote from: DSK on 16 Apr 2007, 03:37 am

I see that bpape has chimed in and actually compared the Paradisea to the analog modded SB and found the analog modded SB to be the better performer

How do you define "better"??

Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of Bolder's products, but I've been in this hobby long enough to realize that "taste" is not universal, and "better" is often a matter of "taste". I have friends who preferred Paradisea to the Bolder analog mod because he likes the more analog sound of Paradisea. I haven't heard the Paradisea but I am happy with the sound of Bolder and do not think that I want to add more "analog" sound to my system. The point is, if one is serious about this hobby, there's no other way to find out which is really "better" except to try all of them.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", asking "which gear is better?" without listening to them yourself, is like asking "which woman is prettier?" without seeing them yourself.