[DSK]

I see that bpape has chimed in and actually compared the Paradisea to the analog modded SB and found the analog modded SB to be the better performer

How do you define "better"?? Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of Bolder's products, but I've been in this hobby long enough to realize that "taste" is not universal, and "better" is often a matter of "taste". I have friends who preferred Paradisea to the Bolder analog mod because he likes the more analog sound of Paradisea. I haven't heard the Paradisea but I am happy with the sound of Bolder and do not think that I want to add more "analog" sound to my system. The point is, if one is serious about this hobby, there's no other way to find out which is really "better" except to try all of them.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", asking "which gear is better?" without listening to them yourself, is like asking "which woman is prettier?" without seeing them yourself.

I agree with you totally. Just trying to help the OP. If he is unable to audition them first, my point is that the analog modded SB (With PS) is cheaper than a good external DAC (+cables) and performs just as well ...maybe better.... maybe different....

[denjo]

...Also, many external DACs allow for at least RCA and optical (with some even offering BNC or USB). This allows those with a cheap CDP/DVD player to share the DACs benefit, something the SB3 analog mods cannot do....

Dennis, we are talking about squeezing out the most performance we can here. Why would we have a crap CD/DVD player sitting in our high end rig? 

DSK, only because a good external DAC can elevate the peasant CD/DVD player to gentry levels, allowing it to compete with highend, megabuck standalone CDPs and not feel embarassed!
From what you say, the analog only mods do seem to be a relatively inexpensive way to enter highend digital. Certainly worth looking into Wayne's analog only mod. I'm looking at a second SB3 in the not too distant future. One thing though, do you still have full full access to internet radio and squeezenetwork after these mods?

Best Regards
Dennis

[DSK]

...Also, many external DACs allow for at least RCA and optical (with some even offering BNC or USB). This allows those with a cheap CDP/DVD player to share the DACs benefit, something the SB3 analog mods cannot do....

Dennis, we are talking about squeezing out the most performance we can here. Why would we have a crap CD/DVD player sitting in our high end rig? 

DSK, only because a good external DAC can elevate the peasant CD/DVD player to gentry levels, allowing it to compete with highend, megabuck standalone CDPs and not feel embarassed!
From what you say, the analog only mods do seem to be a relatively inexpensive way to enter highend digital. Certainly worth looking into Wayne's analog only mod. I'm looking at a second SB3 in the not too distant future. One thing though, do you still have full full access to internet radio and squeezenetwork after these mods?

Best Regards
Dennis

Dennis, to be honest I'm not sure on this. It wasn't something I was worried about and haven't tried it. Shoot a query to Wayne, he is very responsive and helpful. Cheers, Darren.

[JLM]

PS upgrade is a given.

Is the digital mod to the SB a given too?

If so, going with the full SB mod is nearly a no-brainer for only $50 more.  ("Nearly" because having separate components allows for inclusion of digital equalization, something I'd like to try.)  OTOH I'm way into cheaper and simplier, so I wonder if Wayne could add a digital input.

Frankly I had a modded SB3 a year ago and had to sell it as I'm a computer dummy     and kept having computer/home network hiccups that would take days to figure out.  I loved the convenience and the addition of internet audio streaming, but not the need to rip in order to listen.  (I don't know about you, but I have lots of CDs that I might listen to occasionally, but they're barely worth the effort or HD space to rip.)  I even had hiccups when switching to low quality streaming sources.

BTW Slimdevices is having their spring white sale until end of May ($250 for a wireless SB3 in white).

[bpape]

Just so you know, there is a plugin available to do some digital EQ on the SB.  You can get it on the Slim Devices forum. 

Bryan

[bpape]

AliG

I find your comments about your friend preferring the Paradesia being more analog amusing.  That is exactly the same comment that most of the folks in my listening comparisons gave for preferring the SB Analog mods.

Just goes to show you how different people interpret things and how much preferences differ.

Bryan

[woodsyi]

I have never owned SB3s although I tried a couple of RWA modded ones in my system.  I have, however, tried just about every permutation of Bolder mods on SB2s.  I have tried UPS I (DU's) and UPS II along with HP/Agilant industrial (testing equipment) power supply.  Right now I even have Wayne's touring Burson buffer in the system.  I have only tried two DACs with the SBs:  Paradisea with WE tube and EA modded Northstar 192 DAC.  What do I think?

It will take a heck of a digital front end (probably at a substantial cost) to better Bolder analog mod/silver Bybees/UPS MK II/Burson Buffer/Black Sand Silver Ref MKV PC/Summit DC cable.  Paradisea is a good DAC for it's price but I didn't keep it.  Digital out to Northstar DAC was better until the Burson Buffer entered the scene.  There is something with Burson Buffer that takes the last bit of digital hash out without losing clarity. 

As a reference I also run a I2S transport (both physical transport in Northstar model and EA I2S Off Ramp) DAC combo and it may be better than the SB.  I won't say which is better as it gets to be subjective preferences at this level.   You have to try one in your system to see if you like the sound because they are different.  You have to listen for a couple of weeks or more to see if the system keeps you coming back for more music.  I find that ultimately that's the difference in deciding which gear is better for me.  The down side of Off-Ramp is that a PC has to be in the room or at least close by where USB cable can be connected.  I like it well enough that I am building a silent PC.  I also like Bolder SBs well enough to have 2 modded to the full hilt.  I think I will get at least one Burson Buffer -- I will wait to see if Wayne comes up with some further tweak with it.  One other important consideration is that SB wins hands down in convenience, especially wireless access for rooms other than your main audio room. 

[Wayne1]

Thank you all for your comments 

This is another very good, civil thread.

I do urge more people to post their thoughts about the modded SB used with a DAC vs the analog mods.

SO far, I have not heard any outboard DAC that I like better than the analog only mods.

Woodsyi is correct in that adding the Burson Buffer does improve things across the board.

The concept of building the SB into a case with the Burson is on hold for now. Some other projects have come to the forefront.

I will be working with another AC manufacturer to build the a modded Buffer into a more attractive case.

Next up with be a "full featured control center" based around the Burson Buffer. It appears that lots of pre-amps have way too much gain in a lot of systems. This only allows listeners to use a very small amount of the volume control. The Buffer does have 6 db of gain and it can be modded to get some more out of it.

I am going to be starting work to put together a 6 input, four output, control center with remote input switching and remote volume. Phase inversion can be selected for all inputs. Hopefully this can be done in time to have a finished product for RMAF.

[Charles Calkins]

Wayne1:
 I can't comment on you analog mods to the SB3 because I've never had one to try.
 I can comment on your digital mods to the SB3 because I have one that you did for me.
  In my system My SB3 runs through an APL DAC with the Crystal chips. I have tried other DAC's but none of them come close to the performance of the APL DAC. This combination beats the crap out of any CD player I've had or tried out.
 So cheers to you and I'll see you at the RMAF in Oct.


                                                     Charlie

[Wayne1]

Charlie,

I look forward to having a couple more beers with you at the lounge at RMAF

Dennis,

The modded SB can receive all internet radio. The part of the mod that removed one of the crystals is no longer done. The very slight changes in sound were not worth losing access to some stations.

[jrebman]

Wayne,

What about the possibility of a unity gain burson?  First of all it would probably be nice to test if this actually had any practical use -- i.e. - for those who have a preamp they like in their system and just want to buffer the output from the SB -- assuming there is some sonic advantage to doing so.

On another subject, if I were to send you an SB2 which already had the crystal removed, do you have any spares to use as replacements?

thanks,

Jim

[mcgsxr]

On the subject of DAC vs SB3 analog mods, I can only say this - I used to own a Monarchy SuperBit, a fully modded Bolder Mensa (remember the ART DIO?) and a Hagerman Clarinet (tubed pre, custom built for me by mgalusha).  I sold it all off (with associated cabling), and kept the Bolder fully modded SB3 (analog and digital, no bybees), using it as my source/pre.  I use a Rev 1 with Jensens as the PS for the SB3.

Very happy with this piece a year+ later, and no intention of trying any other DAC - why the digital mod you ask?  Well, as a future proof more than anything, and in case a cheap used Panny 45 surfaces, I can use the digital signal to best advantage!

I can see why someone would consider an outboard DAC, and in terms of flexibility, I could see the appeal.  For the $$ though, I cannot see that you will top the SB3, and I wonder if you will have the opportunity to try a modded SB3 directly to your power amps?  You might be surprised.  That is how I run now, and yes integrating a sub is a pain, but the clarity, simplicity factor is over the top.

Great gear, great pricing, and an excellent guy to deal with in Wayne.

[TomS]

I had a Wadia 861SE CDP/DAC with GNSC statement mods ($9k).  I also have a Resolution Audio Opus 21 CDP/DAC with GNSC Reference mods.  The Wadia's gone and I now use the Bolder SB2 with analog out, Ultimate MK II, and gold bybees for all my listening.  I tried the Wadia and the Opus 21 as DAC only with the SB2 and preferred the straight analog out.  Sometimes simpler is just better.

[Wayne1]

Jim,

I do have a spare crystal on hand. Feel free to send it down anytime. I am fairly caught up, for this week anyway
I will get in touch with Burson to see about the possibility of offering various amount of gain.

Mark,

Thank you for the comments. I do suggest you think about giving the Burson Buffer a try after your SB3. This has been the only product I have tried that does make the modded SB sound better. Most preamps do take away something from the sound. The Burson improves it. One of the products will be a stand alone Buffer with a single input and dual outputs so you CAN easily run a stereo line out to a powered sub.

The control center will be developed with John Chapman of BentAudio 

John has spent a lot of time in his development of the TAP control system. It has just about every feature that most could want in a pre-amp.

We plan to integrate a resistor controlled TAP feeding the Burson Buffer in one box. There will be a separate box containing the power supply. This will give a person with multiple sources the ability to change phase, gain, etc from one unit and allow easy integration of a modded SB into an existing system.









I am VERY excited about this. I should be getting a prototype up and running in a couple of weeks.

[TomS]

Jim,

I do have a spare crystal on hand. Feel free to send it down anytime. I am fairly caught up, for this week anyway
I will get in touch with Burson to see about the possibility of offering various amount of gain.

Mark,

Thank you for the comments. I do suggest you think about giving the Burson Buffer a try after your SB3. This has been the only product I have tried that does make the modded SB sound better. Most preamps do take away something from the sound. The Burson improves it. One of the products will be a stand alone Buffer with a single input and dual outputs so you CAN easily run a stereo line out to a powered sub.

The control center will be developed with John Chapman of BentAudio 

John has spent a lot of time in his development of the TAP control system. It has just about every feature that most could want in a pre-amp.

We plan to integrate a resistor controlled TAP feeding the Burson Buffer in one box. There will be a separate box containing the power supply. This will give a person with multiple sources the ability to change phase, gain, etc from one unit and allow easy integration of a modded SB into an existing system.









I am VERY excited about this. I should be getting a prototype up and running in a couple of weeks.

Wow - What an outstanding partnership.  We'll look forward to seeing the fruit of that one!

Tom

[jrebman]

Jim,

I do have a spare crystal on hand. Feel free to send it down anytime. I am fairly caught up, for this week anyway

I don't have it yet -- it is an RWA SB2 that is still at Vinnie's, and I'll probably ship you another Elpac (the larger one) at the same time.

I will get in touch with Burson to see about the possibility of offering various amount of gain.

Great -- thanks.

The control center will be developed with John Chapman of BentAudio 

When you said 6 inputs, remote input select and volume, and phase, I figured this is who/what you were talking about .  I was thinking the same thing a few weeks ago and now I'd really have to try the TAP/burson combo against my new tube pre which has just notched my system up several levels .  It would be interesting to do a side-by-side <hint, hint>

-- Jim

[Wayne1]

Jim,

When I get the prototype up and running, I will want to try it out in a few systems.

Any possibility of getting an invite to come up to Boulder? 

[jrebman]

Jim,

When I get the prototype up and running, I will want to try it out in a few systems.

Any possibility of getting an invite to come up to Boulder? 

Wayne,

Absolutely!

When you're ready we'll figure out the details.

-- Jim

[mcgsxr]

Mark,

Thank you for the comments. I do suggest you think about giving the Burson Buffer a try after your SB3. This has been the only product I have tried that does make the modded SB sound better. Most preamps do take away something from the sound. The Burson improves it. One of the products will be a stand alone Buffer with a single input and dual outputs so you CAN easily run a stereo line out to a powered sub.

Oh good, another way to spend more of my money!  At least it will simplify the sub issues!

I will start shaving my contributions to my kid's education fund as we speak!   

[BRN]

Wow. I have a SB2 with both analog and digital mods, no bybees, and think it sounds great. Now this talk about the Burson buffer improving the sound of the SB. Sounds like I'm in the same boat as mcgsxr.