[mixsit]

4) External crossover of 3 types – “Standard” – “Intermediate” – “Ultimate.” 
The Standard is the same as is used inside the enclosure and is part of the original speaker purchase price.  Making it as an external design does add cost though.

Please excuse my thickness on this- I know you've better things to do.. maybe someone else can fill me in..
Is the 'Standard' then just the woofer coil- upgraded from what's in my speakers, but mounted external, that was referred to in the first 'up grade' post?

And second, my impression from reading all of the post was that with that first step was a very real jump in accuracy. Bob backed it, both on sonics, and engineering. Forgive me for my hesitation and notions of the placebo effect regarding the other stages.. This too is real. (..from one too many times having heard 'real changes on a compressor, or eq, whatever, that was out of the circuit..
I guess I'm looking for some quantification on which way to go.
 
Wayne

[Karsten]

Wayne,

Before testing these "ultimate parts" I was at a point where I told myself that I did not care if this was the best sound I was ever going to get, because it was that good.

However those silver/gold caps were something of an eye opener for me. The difference is substantial and something people, who heard the speakers before the upgrade, notice pretty much the instant they enter the room.

Well I thought these speakers had a pretty high accuracy and resolution before, now I'm going through my music collection and discovering a lot of details I never even noticed before.

I know that Bob got a lot of orders for the "ultimate" upgrade, if you are sceptic you could wait and hear the feed back from those guys.

On the other hand, I know that this upgrade do turn the speakers into a dream tool for anyone working professionally with audio, in terms of transparency, resolution and handling of micro dynamics. But then you would have to take my word for it...

Karsten

[Russell Dawkins]

This concerns me, too, as the improvements as I understand it are in areas in which SP Tech speakers already held high ground, like low distortion at relatively high playback levels.
Seems to me also that this should be measurable and I would be fascinated to see, for a change, a correlation between a measurement (in this case a graph showing percentage of 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion at different output levels) and the listening reality.

I would also be curious to see if anything was visible on an impulse response plot.

Much of my work involves the sound source which I consider the most demanding of generous dynamic headroom and simultaneously the most revealing of distortion.

It may surprise some to know that I am talking about choirs, large and small.

What can confuse the issue is that large choirs singing forte can produce what sounds to me like a trace of electronic distortion in actual acoustic reality. It is a sound a bit like tearing fabric.

[ooheadsoo]

Precisely what I'm also afraid of.  It happens all the time.  However, I think the "new" "standard" crossover is ALL Mundorf, not just the woofer coil, with additional cost for the external variety.

[Karsten]

Much of my work involves the sound source which I consider the most demanding of generous dynamic headroom and simultaneously the most revealing of distortion.

It may surprise some to know that I am talking about choirs, large and small.

What can confuse the issue is that large choirs singing forte can produce what sounds to me like a trace of electronic distortion in actual acoustic reality. It is a sound a bit like tearing fabric.

Russel,

Yes I think that the improvements would be measurable given the right and sensitive enough equipment. However I don't think a conventional distortion measurement would show much.

Funny enough I was speaking to Bob just the other day, about choirs. One of the things very noticeable is the ability to actually discern between the individual voices in a choir in a way I have not been able to before.

It might be that the artifact you are describing is what I have been calling "slight harshness" After the upgrade a lot of that energy turned out to be "micro dynamic information" Before discovering this I thought the microphones had been clipping or something like that.

Karsten

[ooheadsoo]

That's very interesting because in my experience, unless you know the voices of each singer, I've found it difficult to pinpoint individual singers in a choir in real acoustic space.  A fascinating aspect of sound reproduction, I'm not sure how "true to life" it is.

[Double Ugly]

This concerns me, too, as the improvements as I understand it are in areas in which SP Tech speakers already held high ground, like low distortion at relatively high playback levels.

The first thing that came to mind after reading the above was, "Nothing is perfect."  I haven't heard it yet, but despite the fact (IMO) that SP Tech speakers are far and away better than most competitors in the areas specified, it certainly doesn't mean they can't be made to perform at even higher levels.

Further, as noted in a couple of threads, the really *BIG* revelation (pardon the pun) had to do with substandard coil performance in 4-ohm speakers.  Though no one has performed any evaluations to date, it is believed 8-ohm speakers (ala Timepieces) have little to nothing to gain from the coil update.  Consequently, the best bet for improved performance with Timepieces is with better crossover parts.  I believe most folks understand improvement can almost always be had with better pieces and parts, assuming they're suitable to the engineering and design approach of the man in charge. 

Bob has always maintained that he designed, built and sold the best performing speakers he could *at a price point.*  Now, due to Karsten's recent discoveries, there appears to be some demand for even higher performance, even if it means digging a little deeper into our collective pockets to get it.   

Seems to me also that this should be measurable and I would be fascinated to see, for a change, a correlation between a measurement (in this case a graph showing percentage of 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion at different output levels) and the listening reality.

I would also be curious to see if anything was visible on an impulse response plot.

I suspect the only place you could find readily measurable differences would be with the coil in 4-ohm crossovers, and Bob has already said he doesn't have time to perform the required tests.

As to the other option, different caps sound different, even if their measurements are virtually identical.  I wish it wasn't true, but unfortunately I know it is.

It will probably be a few months, but those of use who've taken the leap will be posting our subjective assessments of the upgrades soon enough.  Only then will we know for sure whether or not our money was well-spent, measurements be danged.  They're a great place to start, but they certainly aren't the be all/end all of where sound ends.

However, I think the "new" "standard" crossover is ALL Mundorf, not just the woofer coil, with additional cost for the external variety.

Unless I, too, am mistaken, you are correct.  According to Karsten, the formerly-used Sonicaps performed as well as the mid-line Mundorf equivalents, but Bob has chosen to be an 'all-Mundorf' kind of guy anyway.

[Karsten]

That's very interesting because in my experience, unless you know the voices of each singer, I've found it difficult to pinpoint individual singers in a choir in real acoustic space.  A fascinating aspect of sound reproduction, I'm not sure how "true to life" it is.

I guess it depends a lot on the recording technique used. Listening from a distance the room ambience etc. will probably smear out a lot.

Karsten

[Karsten]

Unless I, too, am mistaken, you are correct.  According to Karsten, the formerly-used Sonicaps performed as well as the mid-line Mundorf equivalents, but Bob has chosen to be an 'all-Mundorf' kind of guy anyway.

That was written before I got the caps from Mundorf. It does seem like even the mid-line Mundorf has a bit extra to offer, probably mainly due to the induction free winding technique.

Karsten

[Double Ugly]

Unless I, too, am mistaken, you are correct.  According to Karsten, the formerly-used Sonicaps performed as well as the mid-line Mundorf equivalents, but Bob has chosen to be an 'all-Mundorf' kind of guy anyway.

That was written before I got the caps from Mundorf. It does seem like even the mid-line Mundorf has a bit extra to offer, probably mainly due to the induction free winding technique.

Karsten

Excellent! 

So even those who want to order a pair of bone-stock SP Tech speakers will realize even better sonics than I've gotten with a pair of what used to be fully-upgraded speakers!  Good for them! 

-Jim

[Russell Dawkins]

Bad choice of word on my part (reply #2, above).

I said "concerns", when "interests" would have been more appropriate. It really does not concern me.

[mixsit]

I'm considering the 'Intermediate as it's not a huge jump in price -if there is a real jump in performance. At this point Karsten is the only one who knows(?)
Wayne

[Double Ugly]

At this point Karsten is the only one who knows(?)
Wayne

I believe that is correct.

-Jim

[mixsit]

All right. My order's in, I'm excited. This should be some fun.
Went with the 'Intermediate'.