2007 digital amp shoot out discussion thread.

robert1325 · « **Reply #20 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 12:34 pm »

I've tried the trends with my 90db 8ohm minimonitors and could very clearly hear how compressed it got on dynamic parts of the music... this vanished when I listened to the amp trought the hawthorne SI's (96db 8ohm) it sounds a lot more relaxed now!

It could just be a mismatch between source and amp that caused the strange volume setting?

FJK · « **Reply #21 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 01:31 pm »

With the four T based amps (Dot t, Dodd, Sonic Impact and Trends) making it as far as they did, less the sonic impact , I think it shows T based might be the best choice for most. Reason being because if you analyze the comments the highs seem to be easier on the ears. The non-t amps seemed to have more air and have "tinkly" comments. As good an attribute as this is, it also brings with it the irratation.

This has always been the common downfall of digital. Even when one of the major magazines did a shoot out with four very high end digital amps, the treble was the biggest complaint to all. None of them were T based.

Further to this, the Dodd which I believe if similar to the Red wine audio sig 30/60 would has oil caps (correct me if I am wrong). This further helps to smooth out the sound and which probably contributes to comments like "analogue like".

So I will try a T based amp. Although I don't know which one .

Dodd- expensive, but like the description of the sound.
Dot T- I would like to run a quality tube preamp so I am not sure if the tube buffer can be bypassed. Also others have commented on problems relating to quality of the product.
Trends-I understand the volume control can be bypassed. Unfortunately the power is a touch too low and it can not be bridged.

So for me anyways, none is perfect. There seems to a growing number of companies jumping in to put out T based amps so I hope I will have another option soon. Also higher powered chips are becoming available for more realistic use.

robert1325 · « **Reply #22 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 01:40 pm »

FJK, have a look at the winsome labs mouse amp... the same chipset as the RWA sig 30.

Edit:
And it's also possible to make the trends a monoblock amp.... ( with some minor modding , or contact M.mardis)

FJK · « **Reply #23 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 01:43 pm »

Thank you for the suggestion.

robert1325 · « **Reply #24 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 01:46 pm »

see above edit to

Someone over at diyaudio chimed in about the winsome labs and found it was head and shoulders above the his two trends amps and charlize...

Daygloworange · « **Reply #25 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 02:18 pm »

Shootouts are real interesting, but also not all encompassing. We ran a blind amp comparison at a TAAS event earlier this year and it was real interesting. We did not condense it down to a playoff situation. Personally, I don't think it's entirely fair, to be honest.

After our comparo, I had a number of the amps in my possession for a few weeks after the event. Number one, they don't sound the same in another location. The system we used during the comparo was mine (transport, speakers, IC's ,SC's etc) so I can be sure of that. The next is how they sound after you've listened to them for days in your system. I found that sometimes, something that sounded revealing, could actually be somewhat fatiguing over the long term, and by the same token, something that intially sounded smooth could sound a little dull and lackluster over the long term. Not disgustingly so, mind you, but, they do come across differently over a slightly longer listening period.

The other I noticed was where we would hear the largest differences. Our track list was longer for our comparo. We had some well recorded and mixed popular music, and just for contrast and to close the listening session prior to switching amps, we played a Beethoven classic, " Fur Elise". It wasn't a particularly brilliant recording, but not a bad one either ( the level was quite a bit lower). To my surprise, this track ended up being one where the you could hear the differences in amps to a larger degree than with some of the other ones. It ended up being a very good way to determine some of the musical characteristics of the amps. Spatial cues of the recording and the timbre of the solo piano were very revealing.

The other aspect I've found is that despite people being very enthusiastic about audio, and dedicated listeners, and having the benefit of years of gear rolling and exposure, I'm finding there is no consensus as to what constitutes good sound. I find that I can agree with a lot of people when something sounds good, BUT.....don't always agree on what sounds better and why.

Just food for thought. Some of the things I've noticed recently.

Cheers

eric the red · « **Reply #26 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 03:10 pm »

Quote from: Daygloworange on 3 Apr 2007, 02:18 pm

The other aspect I've found is that despite people being very enthusiastic about audio, and dedicated listeners, and having the benefit of years of gear rolling and exposure, I'm finding there is no consensus as to what constitutes good sound. I find that I can agree with a lot of people when something sounds good, BUT.....don't always agree on what sounds better and why.

Cheers

But we CAN all agree that vinyl sounds better than digital

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #27 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 03:19 pm »

Quote from: eric the red on 3 Apr 2007, 03:10 pm

But we CAN all agree that vinyl sounds better than digital...

Only if the vinyl is a direct to disc analogue recording pre-dating 1979...

Daygloworange · « **Reply #28 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 03:42 pm »

Quote

But we CAN all agree that vinyl sounds better than digital

We just did a comparison of a couple of TT's alongside digital playing the same music selections at a recent TAAS meet a few weeks ago. Again, there was no consensus as to which was the better sounding. The two turntables had very different sounds, and of course the CDP sounded different from the TT's.

Cheers

marvda1 · « **Reply #29 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 03:45 pm »

Hello, I was at the integrated amp shootout, I was "ye royal score sheet collector" and I was on the panel of judges for the power amp shootout. I had planned on collecting score sheets again but thanks to Art, please don't hit me again!!

, was pressed into judging. Kidding aside, it was a good, enjoyable time and due to fewer number of power amps to listen to I did not get as tired as I did just listening to the integrateds.

Some have asked if there could be a shootout between the two winners but in my opinion this would not fair very well as a lot of us discussed after the power amp shootout that the power amps blew away the integrateds sound wise and the number one reason reached was that the weakness of the integrateds is their preamp sections and that the power amps more or less take on the sound of the source preamp, of course we did not listen with other preamps to prove this.

To give detailed comments on each amp I would have to get my notes back along with a round by round listing by letter of the amps involved.

Now as to the final two amps, the Cary and Dodd, the reason I preferred the Cary was because, this may sound weird but It's like you are at a concert and the artist sounds good (Dodd) but there is the feeling that he's just going through the motions whereas the Cary was performing as if he was having a good time and you get into it tapping your toes and you just have that happy feeling.

Some of the things I listen for when comparing components are, tonality, pace, balance, extension at extremes, attack and decay, must demonstrate power or finesse when needed, clarity in highs and midrange, somewhat tight bass.

Marvin

marvda1 · « **Reply #30 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 03:48 pm »

Art, maybe this weekend I'll drop by and you can make me a copy of my notes so I can give some more detailed descriptions.
A good excuse to listen to some music

Marvin

arthurs · « **Reply #31 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 03:52 pm »

Give me a holler Marvin, you can have the notes back I have them all on my hard drive now....

Daygloworange · « **Reply #32 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 03:54 pm »

Quote

Now as to the final two amps, the Cary and Dodd, the reason I preferred the Cary was because, this may sound weird but It's like you are at a concert and the artist sounds good (Dodd) but there is the feeling that he's just going through the motions whereas the Cary was performing as if he was having a good time and you get into it tapping your toes and you just have that happy feeling.

This might explain what I'm finding in listening sessions with other enthusiasts. Everyone is looking for a different thing. There are times where I suspect that I might actually prefer a more "clinical" sound ( what someone might desribe as cold and unemotive, but precise), as opposed to a more lively sound.

Still trying to figure it out...

Cheers

ctviggen · « **Reply #33 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 04:10 pm »

I think that figuring it out is hard. For instance, I hate -- and I mean I cannot stand and must turn off -- B&W speakers. To me, they're so bright as to be equivalent to scraping fingernails on a chalkboard. However, other people think they're the best speakers ever.

konut · « **Reply #34 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 04:30 pm »

Great job guys. Kudos to all involved. Food for thought. It seemed to me that there were no real stinkers in the amp shootout. The differences were described as slight. Would it not be logical to assume that, for the sake of discussion, on a different day with a different source with different ICs with different speakers, the results would be different? I only bring this up as a testiment to the quality of the amps involved that there are more and more manufacturers bringing well engineered products to market that, depending on synergy, would be of value to the discerning music lover. Having been in this hobby for 35+ years I've GOT to say that we are in the golden age of audio as never before. Maybe the music itself is not as consistently good as it used to be, but the reproduction gear is just stunning. Again, great work.

marvda1 · « **Reply #35 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 04:39 pm »

This shootout was not done to determine the best sounding digital amp out there but was more or less a fun get together to see if a majority preferred one amp over the other according to his preference in Art's system in Art's room. If you did a shootout with the same amps and the same panel in your system the results would probally be totally different. What I am trying to say is listen to as many of these amps in your system to decide which one you want to purchase and not buy blindly according to what results our panel came up with.
Marvin

Danny Richie · « **Reply #36 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 04:40 pm »

Marvin is absolutely correct. These amps, and maybe more so the Tripath based amps, sound like whatever front end is driving them. With a good pre-amp in the path they are completely different than having none.

I had the Trends, the Sonic Impact Super T-amp, and a personal, standard Sonic Impact T-amp that I have made some mods to, all here at once. I listened to all of them here in my own system. All three were pretty good but different in subtle ways. All have similar limitations too.

Then when I turned the volume knobs all the way up and inserted my Dodd, batter powered, tube pre-amp into the signal path they all were very different. It was like a veil was lifted from them. The sound stage opened up and became more expansive. Dynamics picked up by a BUNCH. The bass response had more drive too and made the amps seem a bit more powerful.

This combination was quite good until you needed more power.

thayerg · « **Reply #37 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 04:46 pm »

A couple of weeks ago I was in the library of a local public school where a Suzuki violin class was in progress. First of all it was pretty great to hear young children able to coax perfect long notes out of their instruments completely in tune with one another. Amazing.

But the other thing about it was hearing all the nuances and energy in the harmonics. The sound had a liveliness and visceral quality that just can't be reproduced. It reminded me that "If the first watt sucks, why bother?" is the most valuable truth in audio. I think that a hell of a lot of what we term 'the magic' in audio happens when the output voltage is right around zero.

I bought a couple of Trends amps (and the Trends usb dac) back in January because the little available info about them at that time just gave me a feeling they would be killer. I am biamping a pair of old B&W speakers which aren't anything special, but they sound way better than with every other amp or amps I've tried with them. I recently added a preamp (IRD Purist) and changed the Trends' jumpers to bypass the volume control. This is a further improvement--more detail, better separation of instruments, just that little extra bit of resolution.

With the Trends amp, the first watt doesn't suck at all. Now, if only I could figure out how to get Buyoyo to stop sending me e-mails announcing kung-fu dvds....

JDarby - Stereomojo.com · « **Reply #38 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 05:31 pm »

First, I just got off the phone with Danny and he said he will write up some additional comments that are VERY interesting. Dayglow, all of your points are valid - people do have different biases, likes and dislikes. That's why we used a panel.

As to the questions about "did anything stand out", among the integrateds, not really. So yes, the Onkyo is a very good amp and at an attractive price. Noe of them were bad or awful and, as you can see, most voting was very close. It also turns out that where you SAT was a factor, but I'll let Danny and the guys comment on that. And yes, I think if the shootout were on a different day, things might have been different. But still, the results would be informative. We all have to look BEYOND the final results, which may be the LEAST important factor in all the data. We all love a winner,but if you're a football fan and hate baseball, you might not care who wins the World Series.

Same here. If you MUST have a remote, that eliminates several of the integrateds - including the Trend. If you have 2 or more sources, some amps only have 1 input. So again, the REAL prize is not who won, but the supporting data. There, we give you as much information as possible to make your OWN decision. Notice, too, that we did not tell anyone to go out and buy, or even audition, any ONE of the amps. Quite the opposite. I think that's one of the factors that differentiates Stereomojo from some ofthe rest - we do our darnest to take all the politics and bias out things - not just APPEAR to.

Think about it for a moment; which takes more time and effort? Just tell things the way they are - honestly and truthfully, OR to conspire, connive and manipulate? Heck, maybe all of us here at SM are just lazy!

Let me give you a real example: I am talking to Cary right now about them doing an ad on SM. NONE of the participants knew that - nobody but me and I was not involved at all in the outcome. They will learn of the possible Cary ad when they read it here. I'll tel you this, too: right now I heavily favor the Cary for the overall winner vs. the Trends. But even there, I asked all of you for YOUR input on that decision. Does anyone think that has anything to do with a potential ad? I have yet to say anything positive about the Cary. I don't need to or want to.

Bottom line? Really dig into the data if you are in the market for an amp - don't rely on a winner, per se. Use your brain - don't be a sheep!

JD

robert1325 · « **Reply #39 on:** 3 Apr 2007, 06:18 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 3 Apr 2007, 04:40 pm

Then when I turned the volume knobs all the way up and inserted my Dodd, batter powered, tube pre-amp into the signal path they all were very different. It was like a veil was lifted from them. The sound stage opened up and became more expansive. Dynamics picked up by a BUNCH. The bass response had more drive too and made the amps seem a bit more powerful.

This combination was quite good until you needed more power.

Just ordered some of greg ball's SKA skpre's modules, a class A discrete pre-amp that should be very good! Wonder if this will solve my bass /dynamics problem I'm having right now with my modded squeezebox 1v output

Thanks for commenting on that, I'm going to bypass the volume pot of the trends, It's very cheap.

What a shootout, Me worrying about other similar priced amps being better