[Alwayswantmore]

I’m posting specifics for my situation hoping to learn from your collective experiences. Sorry if this gets a bit lengthy, but here are the elements and ideas I’ve been playing with. My budget for acoustical treatment is somewhere in the $500 range. Whatever I do it will need to pass the wife factor (or be portable so I can hide it in a closet when not in use). Any suggestions are appreciated.

THE ROOM

The new home I’m building includes a dedicated media room (music / TV / reading). The room is a spare bedroom...

- 13 x 12, with smooth 9 ceilings

- Enter from a hall facing the long wall, with two windows on left wall

- Carpet on concrete slab floor

Floor Plan



Windows on Left Wall (this is the model)



THE SPEAKERS

I have Omega Compact Hemps (the new ones), a Wadia 830 CDP, and a RWA Signature 30 amp. The hemps are very efficient, with gobs of detail.

Hemps



Link to specs... http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/compacthemp.html

CHALLENGES

My music system shares the room with a 36” tube-style TV (i.e. huge), so placing speakers on either side of the TV impacts imaging.

Bringing the Hemps further into the room (in front of the TV) – into a near-field listening position – helps imaging, but they lose base augmentation  provided by walls / corners.

Currently I do not have base traps or anything else to optimize room acoustics.

36” TV



Big recliners with movable ottomans



RECOMMENDATIONS FROM LOUIS

Yesterday I had a discussion with Louis (Omega) about my situation (Big TV and small room). Louis recommended that I try the following...

1.) Put the TV in a corner

2.) Place the speakers on a 45 degree angle to the room

3.) Place speakers about 1 foot out from from side walls

4.) Place speakers about 6 foot apart (measured from spkr inner walls)

5.) Do a moderate toe-in (Hemp dispersion is more like a dipole or electrostat)

6.) Use a portable listening chair in an equilateral triangle

This diagram is exactly how the system looks using the previous specifications. I've diagramed the TV on both usable corners.





ETC.

I also have the following tapestry, measuring 74" x 64”, that my wife would like to incorporate into the room. The back and right walls are the only candidates for this. 



SUGGESTIONS?

What do you think I should do? Would it be possible to use the hallway as part of giant bass trap?

Thanks again for any help you can provide.

Best regards, Kent

[Alwayswantmore]

...OK, lookers but no takers.

Just to stir the pot. Louis said that he once did a show using the 45 degree bias, and got some of the best sound he'd ever heard from the Hemps.

Here's a link to a very informative article by a recording engineer named Steve Deckert about setting up a room on the 45 degree bias...

http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm

Quote: "In this article, I'd like to show anyone who's serious about a listening room how to set one up with little or no room treatment. Obviously with the complexity and variety of room acoustics out there, your results may vary, but odds are you will find it an improvement over doing nothing!"

In addition, I'm thinking maybe some bass traps on a couple corners (or possibly in the hallway). Or how about an acoustic panel laid in front of the TV to reduce reflections?

For the TV in the upper left corner (second diagram), could I use the tapestry on the back wall and some heavy curtins over the left wall (the wall with windows)?

Between diagram 1 and 2 (left vs. right TV), which is likely to do better?

Maybe a corner bass trap above the TV?

[Ethan Winer]

Kent,

> My budget for acoustical treatment is somewhere in the $500 range. Whatever I do it will need to pass the wife factor (or be portable so I can hide it in a closet when not in use). <

$500 is pretty low, especially for a small room and especially considering the high quality of your speakers and other gear. Small rooms need proportionally more treatment than larger rooms, especially for bass trapping. As for WAF, acoustic treatment can be effective, attractive, or affordable - pick any two. If you don't mind moving stuff out of the way when you're not listening, that will help a lot.

> Place the speakers on a 45 degree angle to the room <

I recommend against that. Symmetry is key for good imaging, and this proposed placement is not symmetrical. Even if you faced the corner while listening for symmetry, that creates another problem - you'll have a corner directly behind you focusing all the sound at you. This short article on my company's site explains the basic of room setup:

http://www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm

> Currently I do not have base traps or anything else to optimize room acoustics. <

Yes, this is what you need most, as well as first reflection treatment. In a small room like yours, where a wall is close behind, you also need absorption on that rear wall.

--Ethan

[woodsyi]

Begging Ethan's pardon, here is your $500 solution.  http://www.pcrush.com/prodspec.asp?ln=1&itemno=83041&refid=1058

 

I would put some DIY absobers on the back wall and cover it with the tapestry. 

[bpape]

If you do the 45 degree orientation, then the corners behind the TV and behind the listening position would need some serious broadband absorbtion.  I'm not a big fan of the 45 degree thing but have heard it work OK in some rooms.

As Ethan said, symmetry is important for appropriate soundstaging.  The room is almost square which isn't helping things any.

The second layout won't let you trap the rear corner (though the hall is somewhat of a substiture since it won't focus anything  .  The 2nd one would also potentially cause issues by not having much place for reflection control due to the windows to match that on the other wall in front of you.

If it were me, I'd put the TV and the speakers on the left wall of your drawing and trap both of the corners on the left of your drawing.  Obviously, the traps would need to be movable to allow access to the closet. This would also allow you to do curtains and the tapestry on the wall windows and between potentially.  It would also allow symmetric reflection control on both side walls.

Bryan

[Alwayswantmore]

Thanks guys,

I certainly would not mind having movable corner traps. I could hide them in the closet when not in use (either on stands or ones that hang).

As far as budget, I have some flexibility, and I could also add to the system in stages. BTW: The tapestry is big. Would it qualify for rear wall (behind the listener) absorption?

Ethan, if I followed your 38% rule, that would place the listening position to the back of the room (back meaning behind the listener as opposed to "back" in the diagrams), and likely cause me to have to bring the speakers out from the wall (which would also get away from the TV). If the bass traps and 38% rule did the trick I'd be OK. Otherwise I might need a sub because I'll loose augmentation from walls.

>If it were me, I'd put the TV and the speakers on the left wall of your drawing and trap both of the corners on the left of your drawing.  Obviously, the traps would need to be movable to allow access to the closet. This would also allow you to do curtains and the tapestry on the wall windows and between potentially.  It would also allow symmetric reflection control on both side walls.<

Ok Bryan, for this I could have curtains and movable bass traps behind the speakers. Maybe the tapestry behind the listener (the right wall)? And hangable panels at point of first reflection on side walls?????

Appreciate the input!!!
 

[bpape]

Yup - that's basically the idea.  That way, you can keep the speaker relatively close to the front wall for some augmentation if you want and also bring the seat to 38% (closer than halfway of the length - nearer the speakers).  This would provide a more nearfield setup which many times IMO is better in a smaller room.

Bryan

[Alwayswantmore]

Yup - that's basically the idea.  That way, you can keep the speaker relatively close to the front wall for some augmentation if you want and also bring the seat to 38% (closer than halfway of the length - nearer the speakers).  This would provide a more nearfield setup which many times IMO is better in a smaller room.

Bryan

Thanks Bryan. Please help me understand the seat to speaker position you refer to above (38%). The room is 13 feet long. So the seat would be 38% out from the back wall? (i.e. ~5 feet out). Is that what you mean?

Example specs...

- Listener is ~5 feet out from back wall (38% of 13 feet)
- Front of the speakers are 3 feet out from the front wall
- Front of the speakers are about 1 foot in front of TV
- ~5 feet from front of the speakers to the listener (I have used this type of near-field in the past with good results)
- Speakers are 6 foot apart (from inside edge)
- Speakers are about 2 feet out from each sidewall
- 2x4 portable bass traps added to front corners
- Tapestry on back wall (behind the listener)
- Thinner side panels placed at point of first reflection
- Thinner panel in front of TV to reduce reflections
   


Phase II -- add bass traps to back walls???

What do you guys think? Thanks, Kent

[Alwayswantmore]

Ethan -

I read the article you reference above -- nice. Question: 38% refers to the listeners position relative to the room. In my small room, that would need to be calculated from the back wall (about 5 feet). I may have missed it, but how do you figure where the speakers go? Do you figure an equilateral triangle and let the speaker placement from the front wall be a derivative of this equation?

[ajzepp]

I keep reading about mixing absorption in with diffusion....my room is a bit larger than Kent's (11x16 with high ceilings), but I'm trying to figure out if diffusion is as important in a smaller room as it is in a larger one? If so, what are the prime locations for diffusion panels?

[bpape]

The 38% is a theoretical optimal seating position that keeps you out of the nasty length related modes as much as possible.  It is as you stated the seat in relation to the room dimension and has nothing to do with speaker location.  What you have will be fine.

As for diffusion, it can certainly be something that is desirable and functional - but works best in larger spaces.  Realistically, if you're not at least 7-8' away from it, you're not getting the benefit.

Bryan

[Ethan Winer]

Kent,

> The tapestry is big. Would it qualify for rear wall (behind the listener) absorption? <

Not really because you need thick even more than you need big. However, you could put serious absorbers on the rear wall behind you, then hang a tapestry in front to hide them. There might be a bit of a bulge, but at least then you'd have some serious absorption and it wouldn't look too bad.

> I might need a sub because I'll loose augmentation from walls. <

Don't overestimate the small increase in bass level from having loudspeakers near walls. If your current speakers play to a low enough frequency you don't need a sub. And if they don't go low enough you'll need a sub whether the mains are near walls or not. That is, being near walls only increases the overall bass output level a bit. It doesn't extend the speaker's inherent response to a lower frequency.

> how do you figure where the speakers go? Do you figure an equilateral triangle and let the speaker placement from the front wall be a derivative of this equation? <

Yes, you start with the listening position, then the speakers go somewhere along the axes as shown. To determine the best place requires measuring the bass response as you try them at different places along those lines.

--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

I keep reading about mixing absorption in with diffusion....my room is a bit larger than Kent's (11x16 with high ceilings), but I'm trying to figure out if diffusion is as important in a smaller room as it is in a larger one? If so, what are the prime locations for diffusion panels?

You could use diffusion on the rear wall if you're in the front third of the room. If you're in the rear portion you're probably better off with absorption. Or "near" (shallow) diffusors for higher frequencies and bass trapping below. But good diffusors are more expensive than good absorbers, so you need to choose between sound quality and bang for the buck. If you're right up against the rear wall then absorption is definitely the better (only) choice.

--Ethan

[ajzepp]

Yeah, I sit around 4' from the rear wall, so I guess absorption it is!  Thanks guys, I really appreciate the time you both take to help out with our understanding of this! 

[Alwayswantmore]

Thanks to both Ethan and Bryan. The house is being built, so no immediate changes. But at least I have a better idea for how to set up the room and where to place the cable drops for the TV. Or even better - slip the movers a $50 to drop the big TV so I can justify a new flat panel 

[Alwayswantmore]

Don't overestimate the small increase in bass level from having loudspeakers near walls. If your current speakers play to a low enough frequency you don't need a sub. And if they don't go low enough you'll need a sub whether the mains are near walls or not. That is, being near walls only increases the overall bass output level a bit. It doesn't extend the speaker's inherent response to a lower frequency.

Ethan, clarification: Do either the side wall OR back wall provide augmentation? In other words, if I brought them out 5 or 6 feet from the back wall, but placed them within a foot or two of the side wall, do they still gain augmentation? [I had alway assocated augmentation with corner placment.] And if they are that close to the side walls, will I still want dampening at the first reflection point?

As far as absorption for the rear wall, could I buy some acoustical panels from Lowes and get decent results (placed under the tapestry)? They would be cheap and pretty flat so they would not have to be very visible. I could cut to size and cover the entire surface area of the tapestry. Not as deep, but more surface area than two 2x4 panels.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. Kent

[Ethan Winer]

Do either the side wall OR back wall provide augmentation?

Yes, because most loudspeakers radiate low frequencies omnidirectionally.

> And if they are that close to the side walls, will I still want dampening at the first reflection point? <

Yes.

> could I buy some acoustical panels from Lowes and get decent results <

I wasn't aware that Lowes sold any acoustic treatment products.

> They would be cheap and pretty flat <

As they say, "Buy cheap, buy twice."

--Ethan

[Psychicanimal]

Begging Ethan's pardon, here is your $500 solution.  http://www.pcrush.com/prodspec.asp?ln=1&itemno=83041&refid=1058

 

I would put some DIY absobers on the back wall and cover it with the tapestry. 

You need to get rid of the TV and the speakers.  Some Kinima (sp?) Canadian mini monitors ( $350 or so) would work much better with the right amplifier.  A friend of mine has them and he uses a pair of VAC 220 monoblocks.  Of course, in such a small room you'd have to wear sunscreen...

I use a pair of Dan Wright modded Swans M-1 mini monitors 5 feet away.  They deliver bass in the 40-45 Hz range out of 4 1/2"woofs.

A sat/stereo subs setup and a flatscreen LCD is your ticket.

***

[mdfoy]

Alwayswantsmore,

How did you draw your picture of the room? 

[Alwayswantmore]

Alwayswantsmore,

How did you draw your picture of the room? 

Lane furniture has link to simple Java based room planner. I use the generic tab, where you can access various generic elements, then size to your specs (click the "i" on the object to access the dimentions). Here's the link... http://roomplanner.icovia.com/lane/resources/icovia.aspx

By the way: You can do a "save as" to run various versions of the same room.