[chgolatin2]

Are his product that good that you usually dont see them for sale on the "Used" market, hmmmm, interesting... 

[rockadanny]

Yes. Just order his Fet-Valve Ultra 550 amp and try it out for yourself for a few weeks. You can return it within 30 days and all you'd pay is shipping. My guess is you won't want to return it. It is that good. Excellent power; great extension; musical; fast; dynamic - not flashy, but well balanced top-to-bottom; clean clean clean without sounding sterile. Jim Salk auditions his awesome HT3 speakers with ALL Van Alstine gear (Ultra 550, Ultra preamp, Ultra DAC). Jim Salk, Dennis Murphy, and Dave Ellis all compliment Frank on his gear, and these guys are highly respected professionals known for their talents and honesty - no B.S. from these guys.

[avahifi]

And of course you are about three generations away from hearing current AVA designs, dear Boead, which makes me think your comments are essentially a "rant" indeed.

Why?

Sincerely,

Frank Van Alstine

[Wayner]

Some people spend $6000 dollars on speakers, because they don't spend $6000 dollars on power cords and interconnects. Some of us know where to put the dollar to get the most bang for the buck. Salks speakers use premium SEAS drivers, incredable crossover networks and yes, real nice cabinets. I've heard Frank's speakers at Frank's house and the system with his electronics is fantastic. Interconnects and powercords will never bring payback like fine components will.

Rant some more.

 

[boead]

And of course you are about three generations away from hearing current AVA designs, dear Boead, which makes me think your comments are essentially a "rant" indeed.

Why?

Sincerely,

Frank Van Alstine

I deleted my post and I apologize Frank, must have been a little cranky this morning. Your preamp was the absolute best preamp I had owned up till recently. And the phono section was excellent!! My current Bellari isn’t nearly as good but I just don’t spin vinyl much anymore so it’s good enough.

[boead]

Some people spend $6000 dollars on speakers, because they don't spend $6000 dollars on power cords and interconnects. Some of us know where to put the dollar to get the most bang for the buck. Salks speakers use premium SEAS drivers, incredable crossover networks and yes, real nice cabinets. I've heard Frank's speakers at Frank's house and the system with his electronics is fantastic. Interconnects and powercords will never bring payback like fine components will.

Rant some more.

 

Wayner, I’m trying to be nice. Don’t get me started – again!

I don’t know ANYONE that spends $6000 on power cords, do you?

And I stand by my comment about speakers!!

Most will also agree that it is perfectly acceptable to pay thousands upon thousands of dollars on speakers that are no more then a couple of hundred bucks of drivers in an MDF box with some ‘exotic’ wood veneer. Yeah, they justify spending $6000 on speakers with ‘special’ finishes but won’t spend more then $25 on interconnects – and I’m an asshole?

Peaty boxes, fancy finishes and 600% markups don’t add to the sound of a speaker, however a $300 Harmonic Tech power cords is worth every penny at least I can HEAR that. 
And crossovers just rob sound, best to simply not have any at all. Speakers are NOT fine components. Speakers are cheap to make, even the VERY BEST and so are cabinets. I have 1000% times more respect for a component maker of amps and preamps then a speaker makers or wire companies.

[nicksgem10s]

boead,

I have to tell you I think you might have this one wrong.  I don't know you and I don't know if you have heard the Salk HT3 speakers you are mentioning.  I only just heard them last week for the first time after seeing many posts and discussions about them over the last several years on Audiocircle.  I don't know what they cost from a driver, cabinetry, crossover, wire, design standpoint.  I do know how they sounded with AVA electronics at AKfest '07.  This could be one of the times where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.  This system sounded better to my ears than most I have heard regardless of cost.  This was in a lousy hotel room.  There was an incredible synergy between Frank's electronics and Jim's speakers.

If you have heard the Salk Sound HT3 and still have this opinion of them then you are right and I am wrong.  If you are just judging the book by its cover than I suggest you try to hear them before commenting.  If you have heard them and feel they are overpriced please let me know what speakers are better for the price.  I haven't heard any or found any near their price that are even close.  I won't say anymore because I only got to hear them under show conditions and I am speculating that they could sound even better  setup in a better room that is more appropriate for their size.

I am not going to get into the wire debate because I have heard plenty of differences in my system and in others.  I will tell you I think wires should be the icing on the cake once the recipe has been perfected.  I don't see putting $500 power cord & $500 interconnects on $1000 component.  I would rather have a volex power cord and modestly priced interconnects on a better sounding $2000 component.  That is my .02 cents.

Nick

[Wayner]

OK, boead. I'm not trying to start anything either but I do think you have a mis-understanding of industry, in general. Yes, there is a mark-up in price. People that manufacture things have many costs. One is called R and D. It costs lots of money to come up with good, sound products. There is trial and error, inventory, tooling, advertising and that doesn't even come close to the time spent on listening to components during the evaluation process. All of these activities add up to the price a product has on it. Your $300 dollar power cords only has about $20 dollars worth of parts themselves. The plug is made by somebody like Hubbell, the wire by another manufacturer and assembled and marketed by a third party. He's making money from your sales in the same ratios as any other hifi manufacturer. They have to make money to stay in business. There is a lot of competition out there. Take a few days off and someone has an edge on you.

Have a good one aa

[WEEZ]

Uh, what the hell is this doing in a 'review' circle? Where's the review?

WEEZ

[boead]

boead,

I have to tell you I think you might have this one wrong.  I don't know you and I don't know if you have heard the Salk HT3 speakers you are mentioning. 

Salk speakers? I never mentioned them and I don’t really know what they are or who makes them, if they are $6000 pieces of furniture that happen to make music too my point remains the same.

[avahifi]

The Salk HT3 speakers are $25,000 pieces of audio magic with museum quality fit and finish and woodworking, genius quality crossover designs by Dennis Murphy, and are simply works of art musically and ascetically.  The fact that Jim Salk asks only about $5000 a pair for them is astonishing.  I traded a set of my electronics for one pair, and just paid cash for a second pair.  They are simply the best value musically and in every other respect I have ever seen out there in the 50 years I have been at this.  Outstanding and more.  Buy them if you can afford them.  www.salksound.com

Frank Van Alstine

[boead]

To my surprise, I immediately heard a difference (as did practically everyone at the Chicago Audiofest where I met Carl). And the difference was not subtle. But how could this be? It flew in the face of what I considered to be "the truth" about cables. I was so intrigued, I spent literally hours listening to Carl describe his research and methodologies. He approached cables in much the same way I approach speaker building.

Sounds like my kind of hobbyist. Although $750 for 8 feet of speaker cables and $770 for a 3 foot interconnect seem a bit high – don’t you think?

[Toka]

Sounds like my kind of hobbyist. Although $750 for 8 feet of speaker cables and $770 for a 3 foot interconnect seem a bit high – don’t you think?

That is high, I agree. Especially since the overall design (silver plated copper) doesn't lend itself well to long-term reliability. I would like to see its electrical performance too...since I'm sure you are aware that is all that matters (that the IC's are a 'braid' design makes me wonder about capacitance...). If they measure well...then great! Oh, and purple?  Not 'round here. Jim Salk is entitled to sell anything he wants, though.

[lazydays]

And of course you are about three generations away from hearing current AVA designs, dear Boead, which makes me think your comments are essentially a "rant" indeed.

Why?

Sincerely,

Frank Van Alstine

Now Frank I'm still pacing the floor waiting for that phono stage! <G>!!! Think of me in shear pain listening to John Coletrane saying to myself "if only the preamp would have gotten here today!"
    Anyway take your time and do it right!
gary

[jsalk]

boead -

A friend of mine visited our shop the other day and told me about this thread.  I didn't have time to look it up at the time and wish I had been able to read your initial deleted post.  So I can only comment on what I read without the benefit of the original post. (Note:  You indicate you did not mention our speakers specifically and I did not interpret any of your comments as being directed at us in particular.)

Everyone has the right to their opinions and you certainly have a right to yours.  But not every opinion I held in my lifetime turned out to be correct in the end.  So I would hope that perhaps you might have an open mind with regard to the opinions you expressed.  With that in mind, I will try and provide an alternative point of view you may wish to consider.

First, when analyzing the chain of components that make up an audio system, speakers are by far the weakest link.  No amplifier manufacturer would even consider rating the frequency response of his equipment at +/- 3db (since no one would ever purchase).  Yet this is standard practice for speaker manufacturers. In comparison to every other component in the chain, speakers are the least precise.

So to obtain the best possible system performance, you need to start with the speakers.  It matters little what the other components are if the speakers are not capable of resolving their quality.

To build a truly great speaker, you need at least four things: 1) great drivers; 2) a great cabinet design (much more than just an MDF box); 3) a GREAT crossover design; and, 4) high quality crossover components.  All of these are expensive with the greatest expense being the labor involved in the cabinet construction.

The cost of exotic veneers and fine finishing materials represent only a small percentage of the total cost of a pair of speakers.  For those who find no value in these, we offer the option of a plain black satin lacquer cabinets (although we rarely get requests for them).   There is no audible benefit to fine finishes.  But most of our customers prefer them, so we oblige. 

As for your cost analysis, I can only say that our bill of materials is quite a bit higher than the $1000 you mention.  And your cost analysis does not include the single largest cost - labor.

I have had a few friends help build speakers over the years and even though they were very familiar with the way we build cabinets, every single one of them commented that they had absolutely no idea how much work went into a pair.  I would be happy to have you come to our shop for a week or two and see what is involved.  I can guarantee you that, after that experience, you would wonder how we could ever price speakers so low (I wonder this myself every time I look at our profit margins).

As to whether or not a speaker is worth a specific price, that is a question I can never answer for someone else (although I am asked all the time).  We produce speakers in all price ranges and only the customer can determine the level of performance they desire.

But I can say this:  I don't know what kind of speakers you have in your current system, but based on your comments, I would have to surmise that the speakers in my personal system are superior.  So regardless of what upstream components, interconnects, speaker cables or power cords you have, you are not hearing the sound quality I hear every time I listen to music. 

I have demoed our speakers with many different types of equipment in the past, including a $129 Sony receiver, a $399 Panasonic digital receiver, ATI, Bryston, AVA and many others.  In every case, those listening to the demo were amazed with the sound quality. 

Naturally, the better the source gear, the better the sound.  But in no case can the sound be better than the speakers are capable of producing.

I would like an opportunity to prove my point.  If you PM me with your location, I will try and arrange an audition with an owner so you can hear it for yourself.  I can guarantee it will be worth your time in that your current opinion about speaker value will be forever changed.

On another note, just a comment about Carl Smith's cables and interconnects... 

I met Carl a few years back and was very impressed with both his knowledge and the quality of his cables.  He spent the majority of his adult life designing and building critical instrument-grade cabling for Bell Labs testing facilities. When he retired, he took what he had learned over the years and applied it to his hobby - high quality audio. When he asked me how he could promote his cables, I offered to put them on my site to help him out. 

I am asked about cables all the time and thought that some of our customers might benefit by knowing about Carl's cables. 

Carl sets his own pricing and I realize his calbes are not inexpensive.  But I also know he doesn't make much money building them.  It is a labor of love.

While there are certainly less expensive cables available and some may be equally as good, I am fairly certain that few, if any, will be better.  Carl left no stone unturned in pursuit of the very best cables that he can produce using methodology and materials currently available.  For example, Carl spent six months pursuing a relationship with the only manufacturer, world-wide, of a specific type of wire used in one of this interconnects.  It was the best wire available and Carl was simply unwilling to compromise for a cheaper alternative.

As indicated above, I have no personal gain where Carl's cables are concerned.  I just thought there might be people who would benefit knowing of their existence. 

- Jim

[boead]

Jim, the deleted post had nothing to do with you. Never really heard of you or your speakers, apparently some people made assumptions. 

Cost analysis? I did a cost analysis? I mentioned a large markup to make my point, in no way does that equate to a cost analysis. I’ve worked in the sound engineering and pro audio industry for many years. I have a good idea what speakers components cost and I know for a fact that speaker manufacturers have the largest markup by an order of magnitude then any other audio component manufacturer except maybe cable companies. However high priced cables and wire only exist in consumer audio, in pro audio cable and wire is cheap.
Maybe your markup isn’t as high and maybe that’s why Frank says they are worth $25,000 – who knows?

You don’t have to convince ME of the virtues of good sounding wire. I’m already a believer. Its more likely Frank and his followers (remember; don’t drink the lemonade) that need convincing but I’ll be a futile effort – trust me!


Problem is that this hobby/industry is FULL of contradictions and exaggerations as well as propaganda and deceit.


Jim, I’m sure your speakers sound wonderful. If I’m ever interested in a speaker like yours I’ll take you up on your offer. However, I live and listen in a very different world. My flea powered amps can’t drive your speakers.

[TONEPUB]

Im not really sure where you guys get the idea that speakers are marked up any higher than anything else in the industry.

Most gear is sold from a mfr or a distributor to a dealer who then usually marks it up 35-50 %  Yes, a few cables have a little more markup than that, but for the most part, that's where the margins are in the industry.  And then when you take into account that many dealers have to compete with internet pricing  AFTER they have spent hours of their time demoing gear to tire kickers, sometimes that margin is closer to 20-25%

As Mr. Salk pointed out a lot of the cost in ALL gear comes from labor and in the case of larger companies, just the overhead of running a business. Some of the companies that sell direct can sell for a few bucks extra and hopefully make a little more profit out the door, but no offense there aren't a lot of guys getting rich in the high end audio world (except for a couple of them that I see driving Ferraris).

Everyone I've met so far does it out of a labor of love and most of the bigger ones like Conrad Johnson and Cardas, etc, etc take very good care of their customers and employees.  And that costs money too.

Its a tough business!

[JLM]

We can probably all find cases of low content value in audio, cabling and speakers being perhaps the easiest to pick on, although speakers suffer the most for the price of shipping.  High end audio is huge into dimishing returns.  We spend thousands on a CD player or hundreds on an equipment rack when most folks are happy with a mass produced $30 DVD that sits wherever its convenient and so on. 

The cost savings gained by large scale manufacturering processes is more than lost IMO by the use of distributors and retailers.  Part of the real value dealing with the little guys (no disrespect intended by using this term), like those found here at AC, is in the relationships that are created.  Understanding of customer wants and manufacturers' challenges leads to better products and increased satisfaction for all.

Unfortunately its not easy for someone to be really good at what he does, in this case create and build, and at business both, thats part of why so many small businesses fold so quickly.  Often the little guy doesn't charge enough, or conversely the customer fails to see the entire value offered by the little guy.

[boead]

Unfortunately its not easy for someone to be really good at what he does, in this case create and build, and at business both, thats part of why so many small businesses fold so quickly.  Often the little guy doesn't charge enough, or conversely the customer fails to see the entire value offered by the little guy.

Yes, that’s true but I don’t think it’s that they don’t charge enough. I think it’s that they don’t sell enough and spend on space, equipment and employees that don’t need and can’t afford.
If you out price yourself, you’ll not sell anything. Profit is gained through volume of sales otherwise the buyer is paying for everything including your mistakes.



Jeff, I wasn’t referring to dealer to end user profit margins. That’s always been small and yes the internet and the ease of marketing for warehouse direct sales has hurt the retail industry in a big way – so big that’s its redefining the future of retailing. The internet is changing the world we live in. In the MI (musical instrument) industry there’re great strides being taken by some manufacturers to price lock, this is to make sure that giant retail chains don’t (and cant’) buy at a lower price then the small ma/pa store owner. Many are in support of this type of business practices.

Quite honestly, the Audio Boutique retail store model is flawed. Its impossible to actually hear the component and there is no way they you can know what its going to sound like in your home. There are WAY too many different component types, brands and models for any retailer to provide a suitable choice. Online stores have giant advantages; they can sell anything they want and its likely much cheaper to ‘lend’ units for home demos then maintaining a store. A local audio store that’s been in business for over 30 years here in Long Island has a tiny, old and horribly setup store. His store is more of an office and home base then a show place. Once small room when you walk in with the cheapest stuff he dare sell. This is for the off the street buyer who is not spending much money, most leave and go to the local BestBuy anyway. If your interested in high end the salesman finds out right away, spends some time talking and if your interested enough (or just ask), you’ll get send home with a component or two. Or he’ll call you when one gets back. Most of his demo stock is out and about where is should be. And yeah, he has a Corvette, Mercedes and a Rolex too.