[chefurka]

I'm a new convert to the world of SET amps.  Before I realized I'd be spending the rest of my life with tubes I bought a pair of B&W Nautilus 804's.  While my new amp (KR 18 BSI) has enough grunt to drive them very well, but I know that in my quest to build The System I'll end up replacing them.

My candidates up until half an hour ago were the new JM Labs Alto Utopia and Israel Blume's Total Victory.  I'd been aware of the daCapos from their coverage in UHF, but they'd never interested me because I really like the ease of the bass you get from a bigger speaker.

A glance at the 3a web site turned up the L'Integral, and it got me wondering.  Does it deliver the midrange magic that made the smaller speakers in the line famous while offering up an extra helping of bass?  I can't find any user opinions on the net, and I don't see any here in my (admittedly quick) perusal of the board.

To give you a bit more background, my CD source is a SimAudio Nova used as a transport feeding an Audio Note 3.1x Balanced DAC, then into a SimAudio P-5 preamp and out to the KR Enterprises amp (a 300BXLS SET delivering 18 wpc), all wired with Acoustic Zen cables.  My music ranges from medium rock through jazz, folk, blues, a lot of chamber music, solo violin and some big orchestral (lots of violin concerti).  My priorities are a natural, full-bodied sound with good dynamics and rich harmonics - the sort of sound that makes people with no exposure to stereo say "God, that sounds REAL!"

Would you see a place for a pair of L'Integrals in this system?

[cyounkman]

chefurka - Hello and welcome! Unfortunately we don't have any L'Integrale owners here yet. How did you hear of them?

The L'Integrale uses the same mid/bass driver as the De Capo, in a bigger cabinet, so the basic ingredients for midrange magic with more bass are there. I haven't heard them, though, so...

Compared to the Coincidents and the Alto Utopia, the L'Integrales may well offer better coherence and purity (lacking a crossover and a stack of drivers). The Coincidents are a good deal more efficient, and a more flexible choice if you're looking to move towards really low-power amps; but running the various R3A speakers with less than 18 watts is common practice. The Alto Utopias, as a three-way at only 91 db, might present a pretty significant load to your amp, depending on your listening preferences and room.

Both the Coincidents and JM's will go deeper than the L'Integrales, but if you're a 300B fan I doubt this is your priority anyway.

Another option you could consider is one of the smaller models (the De Capo i, or if you've got the scratch, the top-line Royal Virtuoso--both of which have very satisfying bass on their own) with one or two top-quality subs. Roy Gregory and Scott Markwell of British mag Hi Fi + use the De Capo i and Royal Virtuoso, respectively, with various subs on occasion. (PM me for more details if you're interested.)

For me R3A's have always done the natural timbre trick--that's what got me hooked. If you're looking to hear the rosin on the bow and discern the difference between a good violin and a great one, give them a listen.

[JLM]

I've seen them sold as demo's for around half of retail (Holm's Audio in Chicago maybe a year ago), otherwise they seem expensive compared to the 3A's when all you're paying extra for is the bigger/nicer cabinet.

They do look cool, but the 3A's with one or two subs would be world class (with the flexibility that subs offer).

my 2 cents

[brucegel]

You have a fine system and I like your amp a lot.I don't have much use for preamps but at least you have a respectable one.If you can live with 40hz then the decapo i is your ticket.I like the balance of the the decapos the way they are and the mids and bass are seamless.If you want to spend serious coin there are a few subs that might give you the package to rival the coincidents heft.To get the most from the decapos the chain should be unencumbered meaning no pre just a cd player with high output and monoblocks and whatever cable you like.The analogy is do you want to listen to music multi-tracked and recorded with a dozen or more mikes or do you want the creme de la creme of mikes recording in stereo and no more than two of them.

[gonefishin]

Hi there.  I'm not an owner of the L'Integrale...but i have heard them...and was even considering them at one time.  

   Have you heard either of these speakers?  What other speakers have you heard?  what have you liked?

   The L'Integrale are a nice sounding speaker.  They've got decent sound...ok efficiency and are easy to drive.  I'm not sure how room placement is...but I would be willing to guess they wouldn't be difficult to set up properly in the room...the others here can help you with placement tho.  These speakers have a nice easy way about them...you should definitely give them a listen!

  I haven't heard the total victories...but I did hear the victories.  In my opinion...these speakers were a total let down.  They may have rated high on the eff. scale.  But they seemed to have a flat dynamic range...Dynamics range was one of the things I was after when building my speakers...and I can tell you that I was very pointed with these speakers.  The speakers were well broken in too.  The midrange driver is similar to the 3" soft dome midrange in the Silverline Sonata/sonatina series...I found that both of the silverline series were much better sounding that the Victory's.
   Now, the Coincident Eclipse line of  speakers are much better sounding than their UHF line (to me).  In fact, at one time...I was seriously considering the Super Eclipse speakers, if it wasn't for the side firing woofers and room placement problems.  

   If it's between the two speakers you stated...I would go for the L'Integrale's...of course...what the heck do I know about your taste in speakers...or music?  

   Can you get out and listen to them?  what did/do you think?

   take care...and take a drive and listen...it'll be fun!

[Terry]

Well, I have heard the Integrales and the Total  Victories a number of times in very different systems and rooms. A comparison, therefore, is a little difficult. I have also heard the Victory speakers in several different systems and I would characterize the sound of the TVs as "the Victories on steroids". Seriously, the TVs are among the most dynamic speakers that I have heard, when driven with a Wyetech Topaz 572 amp and a Wadia 861 CDP. Extremely impressive in the short term; however, I have never found the Victory or TV to be quite my cup of tea.  The sound can be a little relentless and, even when driven with top notch SETs, somewhat cold and remote. I would agree with the other poster that the Eclipse series, particularly the Total Eclipse and the new Super Eclipse III are more to my liking.
The Integrales will definitely not give you the dynamics of the TVs. They definitely have a more laid back and relaxed sound: like the DeCappos with more bass and a fuller midrange presentation. I could live with these speakers for a long time, as I could the TEs or the SE IIIs, but probably not the Victories or TVs.
This, of course, is all a matter of taste and your own listening preferences may be entirely different than mine. To bad you could not get them all together for a comparison listen. Wouldn't that be fun.

[chefurka]

One of the problems with selecting new speakers is the difficulty of auditioning them in sonically comparable situations.  The problem is compounded when you're going to be spending significant money and some of the speakers you're considering aren't even locally available.

That said, what I'm looking for is something that combines a very natural midrange and treble presentation with good dynamics and bass that "breathes" from a combination of extension and articulation.  Because of my love of violin music I can't live with any excess of brightness, hardness or relentlessness.

That touch of hardness is what is making me look beyond my B&W's - while I love their detail, bass and dynamics, I suspect I can find something with a more natural tone in the upper mids.  I'm just starting my search, so no, I haven't heard much yet in the range I'm looking at.  I have heard the JM Labs Mini Utopias, but the bass quality left me looking for more, which is why I'm considering the Alto Utopias.

I'm getting a stong impression that the Coincident TV's won't do what I want, no matter how good they might be in other ways.  I still have a pair of Israel's older Conquests that satisfied me for a number of years, but I suspect the TVs are voiced significantly differently and might not thrill me.

I believe I can find the de Capo locally, so an audition is probably in order to see what I think of the R3a "house sound".  If the Supremas were still available, I would probably consider them.

About my preamp - yes it's good, but I agree that the best bet would be to dispense with it and go straight from the DAC into the amp.  This is on my list of issues to examine.  However, I like the remote control, the fact that I can use the balanced outputs of the DAC, and I may also be hooking up my old Sota Sapphire to it one of these days, so it may remain a necessary evil.  We'll see.

Anyway, thanks for the help.  Now it's time for me to do the fun part and actually listen to some stuff.

[Terry]

Have you heard the Coincident Total Eclipse in a good system? This is, in my humble opinion, Israel's best speaker. I would consider it superior to the Integrale in most areas. Of course, it is also considerably larger and more demanding of the room and set-up requirements.

[chefurka]

I haven't heard any of Israel's big speakers - I'm going on reputation and reviews alone regarding them.  I know, I know, bad idea... I'll look harder at the TE and see if I can find somewhere to audition them.

The room should be OK - my new listening room will be a nice symmetrical 12x20x8 in a basement with a concrete floor and good walls, so it should be able to beat it into shape sonically.

[cyounkman]

My dealer just got in what he tells me is the factory test model of the L'Integral Nouveau. I would bet my socks that it's the one in the picture:




I'm going to hear it again today. I will report back.

[brucegel]

I am very keen on hearing what you think as this speaker is to me the most logical way to get the bottom some of you are missing in the decapo.I would be remiss if I didn't say I think that sat-subs are going to fail at the integration thing compared to the integral which come to think of it is a fine name for bass integration.The one thing that saves the day is the brains ability to trick itself into believing all is one.But I still think no tricks is the best trick of all.

[cyounkman]

I am going to hear the speaker again with different ancillaries. The dealer isn't thrilled with the sound in the current setup; as follows:

Copland CSA-822 cd player
Antique Sound Labs Leyla 845
L'Integral Nouveau
Van den Hul D 102 Mk III ic's
Van den Hul D 352 Hybrid (single)
Van den Hul MainsStream on Copland and ASL, plugged into AudioPrism Power Foundation 3

I started with some Bach that I'd been listening to fervently over the past week: Two- and Three-Part Inventions, Gould, on Sony. The sound was embodied most of the good things about SETs: immediacy, depth, warmth. I found the tone color on the ripe side; but I remember hearing deep into the contrapuntal texture, and a life-like rendition of the infamous 'hiccupping' of the Steinway Gould insisted on using for the studio session. Gould's intentions for the instrument are clear: to sound like the plucked keyboard instruments the pieces were written for. As such, there were  very limited dynamic demands made on the amplifier, and the system created a listenable yet defined image. It sounded like a studio; but an oddly warm, intimate one.

Have to run. More soon.

[cyounkman]

Sorry for the interruption. More from the same system:

A standard test disc for me is the Alban Berg Quartet doing the Debussy and Ravel quartets. (I listened to it on the studio De Capo I’s with the CJ MV-60 at this dealership as well.) On this system, track 6, the Ravel scherzo, sounded full and burnished. The pizz attacks were softer than usual, softer than life, although the instruments in the quartet definitely sounded as if they were made of wood. In my own system, I complain of the opposite problem—too much metallic ‘string’ sound, not enough of the body of the instrument. Here the pendulum swung in the other direction. It occurs to me that I’m talking about the amp instead of the speaker, though.

Ultimately, the sound was what I expected—very much like the De Capo I’s in the next room. I didn’t get the impression that anything was ‘ruined’ or changed significantly with the drivers in the larger cabinet. That in itself is probably an accomplishment.

With the Leyla, things didn’t go so well with more complex music or higher volumes. Elgar’s Introduction and Allegro for Strings was warm, with good instrumental tone, but felt constrained on peaks. When the texture got thick, so did the sound.

I later listened, with a friend, to Bjork’s Debut. Human Behavior, the first cut, had the expected vocal immediacy, but the deep bass thumps and bumps that power the rhythmic drive of the track felt emasculated, an empty shell without any substance underneath; although in the lower frequencies there was a considerable ‘bloom’ which I’m sorry to say is just not on the disc. Extension was decent, but not any better than what I get at home. The third track, Venus as a Boy, didn’t fare much better. Woofer excursion on the synth/drum thwacks was a bit out of control both audibly and visually. (Granted, this is decidedly SET-unfriendly music)

So much for the Leyla (for my tastes, anyway. I should have listened to some Norah Jones or something). The dealer didn’t like it either. He’s promising to hook up either the Copland separates, or the new Copland integrated (which I’ve heard great things about) if he gets another one in; or the Krell KAV-300iL. If it doesn’t flesh out the bass response, I don’t know what will.

More as I hear it.

[cyounkman]

Visited the Nouveaus again, and the dealer very kindly hooked up an entirely different system. This time:

Krell KAV-300iL (ss integrated, 200 wpc)
Krell KAV-280cd (24-bit 8x-oversampling cdp)
L'Integral Nouveau
Van den Hul D 102 Mk III ic's -- balanced
Van den Hul D 352 Hybrid (single)
Van den Hul MainsStream on both, plugged into AudioPrism Power Foundation 3

You want different? This was different. The system had what sounded like limitless power. I didn't realize how loudly I was listening until my ears started hurting from sheer decibels. This combination played without a hint of distortion much louder than even I would listen.

The system was quite dynamic, with a low noise floor and good instrumental timbre. Bass was taut and powerful, although the top end for me lacked a certain something. In fact, the entire system lacked a certain something. I listened to Uchida's Debussy Etudes, Schumann Trios with the Florestan Trio, and the Stravinsky Violin Concerto with Perlman and Barenboim. Each disc was articulate, refined, full-bodied, and musically uninvolving. I found a little system in another room, with Roksan Kandy Mk III integrated and cdp matched to Quad 12L's, more musically involving, despite its tubby bass, over-warm balance, dynamic limitations and (comparative) lack of transparency.

The point here (if there is one) is that system matching is key, which of course will not be news to anyone here. I didn't like this particular system, but the L'Integrale Nouveaus are an extremely capable speaker that speak with a fuller range of dynamic authority (compared to the DCs). Unfortunately I didn't have a chance to listen to some of the other discs I brought (Björk singles and Vespertine, Rite of Spring w Boulez/Cleveland, Mahler 6 w Boulez/Vienna, Rachmaninov Vespers w Robert Shaw) that would have made a more definitive showing of the ultimate bass extension on offer. I guess I could have just use the Stereophile test warbles... At any rate, all of the bass I did hear was in keeping with the rest of the range of the speaker in terms of quality and speed, which is an achievement in itself.

With the same tweeter as the new 'i' De Capo, I hear the Nouveaus as more 'forgiving' as well; less likely to make a fuss of brightness or harshness upstream. (for instance, when I heard my old De Capos in this exact system, I like the result much less) I can't hazard a guess as to whether or not this also means they are less transparent to really pristine systems.

Anyway, that’s the report. In the right system, I’m convinced that these could be pretty incredible. It would be interesting to compare to a system with De Capos and a well-integrated, fast sub or two…