All CD Players sound the same. All CD Players sound the same?

Jim N. · « **Reply #120 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 08:24 pm »

I am hoping this thread continues. There is much here to discuss and has been a fun read thus far.

I do not take someone else's dislike for digital as an attack on my preference for it. It's simply a matter of different taste in music reproduction. For TCG, vinyl is better. For me, it's digital. Nothing to start blowing up buildings over.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #121 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 08:27 pm »

Yup, not sure if loss of civility (myself included) is a sure sign of a dead and played out topic....or whether the topic dies because of the increasingly angered tone. It's the chicken and the egg kinda' scenario goin' on now

Anyhow, I meant no disrespect to anyone currently enjoying their CD playback...I thought I'd impart my opinions and experiences and offer up my advice on how to avoid financial duress and ruin trying to reach some plateau of musical comfort I have never found with any CD playback source.

Spend less, not more. Spend as little as possible on CD...as none of the current playback sources can make music. They are merely approximating it. For that reason, as my oft contentious tagline stated 'All CD players sound the same'. Please note that the 2nd part to the topic title is 'All CD players sound the same?' as I left room to be wholly mistaken, of course.

Please do all remember - there are lots of folks that stand to gain from you re-distributing your wealth to them by buying their latest and greatest CD player or DAC. I have nothing to gain (financially) by telling you to spend less, or to sell you on the merits of a vinyl.

Interestingly, few came forward and spoke glowingly about any CD playback medium....the responses in favor of it were generally steely and technical ones. I again re-state, DVD-A is a good advance on CD...it has many of it's good features and is musical much more like vinyl. For those the prefer 16/44.1 sampling - try DVD-A and you'll likely realize 24/192 stereo can be properly implemented if the recording and playback process is improved (as DVD-A is an improvement over CD). See, I'm not at all anti-digital....merely CD-objective

Therein is a great big point: vinyl, despite it's many, many flaws, stirs the soul and connects musically. CD is convenient, quiet, easy, & portable....but few rarely speak glowingly of it. Vinyl exists today for only on reason; it connects - despite the frustratingly tweeky nature of it that should turn off everyone from using it.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #122 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 08:54 pm »

I removed a few posts that weren't topic-specific after the above to Fight Club and then decided to just lock it up there.

If this topic can't go on with enthusiasm and camaraderie, then we'll lock this one, too. I think it has merit and is worthy of continued banter, tho, and was brought forward yesterday with all good intentions in mind

arthurs · « **Reply #123 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 09:01 pm »

I favor and/both thinking over either/or...........probably a place for both in a system where you're not forced to choose....

WEEZ · « **Reply #124 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 09:20 pm »

arthurs,

Agreed. In fact, I don't know any analog fans who listen to vinyl exclusively. As I've posted before..digital is THE format today.

WEEZ

konut · « **Reply #125 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 09:29 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 19 Feb 2007, 08:27 pm

Therein is a great big point: vinyl, despite it's many, many flaws, stirs the soul and connects musically. CD is convenient, quiet, easy, & portable....but few rarely speak glowingly of it. Vinyl exists today for only on reason; it connects - despite the frustratingly tweeky nature of it that should turn off everyone from using it.

Herein resides the problem with this thread.

Therein is a great big point: vinyl, despite it's many, many flaws, stirs the soul and connects musically.

That is a statement of opinion. The problem is that, the way its stated, it would lead some to take it as a statement of fact, and to disagree would religate them as ignorant boobs. That may not have been the intent but posted in a forum like this, its not hard to see why some would take it the wrong way.

CD is convenient, quiet, easy, & portable....but few rarely speak glowingly of it.

I would have to vigarously disagree with that statement, again stated as though it were established fact.

Vinyl exists today for only on reason; it connects - despite the frustratingly tweeky nature of it that should turn off everyone from using it.

Again, an opinion. There are as many problems with vinyl playback, re:'connecting', as there are with with digital that should dissuade anyone from using either one.

And the title
All CD Players sound the same. All CD Players sound the same?
How would you have felt about a thread titled as follows,
All turntables sound the same. All turntables sound the same?
Don't you think that would have generated an equally contentious discussion?

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #126 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 09:32 pm »

Quote from: konut on 19 Feb 2007, 09:29 pm

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 19 Feb 2007, 08:27 pm
Therein is a great big point: vinyl, despite it's many, many flaws, stirs the soul and connects musically. CD is convenient, quiet, easy, & portable....but few rarely speak glowingly of it. Vinyl exists today for only on reason; it connects - despite the frustratingly tweeky nature of it that should turn off everyone from using it.

Herein resides the problem with this thread.

Therein is a great big point: vinyl, despite it's many, many flaws, stirs the soul and connects musically.

That is a statement of opinion. The problem is that, the way its stated, it would lead some to take it as a statement of fact, and to disagree would religate them as ignorant boobs. That may not have been the intent but posted in a forum like this, its not hard to see why some would take it the wrong way.

CD is convenient, quiet, easy, & portable....but few rarely speak glowingly of it.

I would have to vigarously disagree with that statement, again stated as though it were established fact.

Vinyl exists today for only on reason; it connects - despite the frustratingly tweeky nature of it that should turn off everyone from using it.

Again, an opinion. There are as many problems with vinyl playback, re:'connecting', as there are with with digital that should dissuade anyone from using either one.

And the title
All CD Players sound the same. All CD Players sound the same?
How would you have felt about a thread titled as follows,
All turntables sound the same. All turntables sound the same?
Don't you think that would have generated an equally contentious discussion?

No kidding!

mjosef · « **Reply #127 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 09:39 pm »

Been following this thread... and read lots of good insights and can appreciate the positions some has taken, but what I have noticed is that TCG original suggestion to spend as little as possbile on CD playback, was not followed by TCG himself. Now maybe if one had been more thrifty in cd player choices in the first place, maybe the perspective would be a whole lot different. But then again, audiophiles tend to sometimes deride products that don't register above a certain price level.
I started out in vinyl, and embraced the digital playback when it first came out, wowed of course by the silent background and dynamic range while cringing at the oftentimes shrill upper frequencies on some cd records. But not all cds were that way, some sounded better than its vinyl counterparts in my playback system. Hey I was on a tight budget in those days, so my equipment purchases were of humble means. My first good turntable was the AR The Turntable (1985-6?) with Shure V15 V-MR cartridge, all purchased for less than $600. at J&R. Previous to that I vaguely remember having a Philips replacing a Garrard turntable. My first cd player was made by ADC...

didn't cost a lot, just over $100. And every cd player I have bought since then has been an improvement on the last. There has been progress in playback quality.
So I appreciate that vinyl will always hold a special place in my experience/history, but I do feel that the cd /digital medium does make good music and both mediums are somewhat complimentary to each other. Many of my old records will never make it to CD, and 96% of my current music purchases will never exist on vinyl. I will maintain both, though for the last decade or more most of my listening has been on the digital cd medium.
Long live vinyl! Long live CD! I hear music on both.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #128 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 09:58 pm »

konut,

All turntables do sorta' sound the same, much as CD players do. I don't advocate spending a lot of money (that is, of course, subjective to everyone) on vinyl either...it, too, is flawed. Tho, to me, spending a bit more on vinyl than you set out to do is worthwhile as it it musically satisfying. I am not sure what limit of $$ constitutes greatly diminished returns with it as yet.

Spending a bit more than you planned on CD is foolhardy - it doesn't make music, it approximates it. I did that already and hoped to impart that to the members. I was foolhardy and wanted to let you in on it. Learn from my multi-thousand $$$ mistake, or do as you wish. It doesn't cost anyone to read what I wrote. It will cost someone to trade up and buy some more expensive CD source, however.

Either way, it's your life to do as you choose. I'm not here to alter it's course, merely to help guide, but only if you choose to accept that guidance

konut · « **Reply #129 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 10:10 pm »

Some may think your guidance is misguided, based on THEIR experience. Of course MY guidance is absolutely the BEST.

If I'd said what I REALLY thought on this forum, I'd have been banned in the first month.

Sometimes I wished I had. Others, I'm sure, agree.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #130 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 10:31 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 19 Feb 2007, 09:58 pm

konut,

All turntables do sorta' sound the same, much as CD players do.

I've owned numerous turntables, tone arms and cartridges over the years. Having graduated into the higher end of analogue, the differences become very substantial. There's a world of difference between a Rega Planner 2 and an Oracle Delphi. An Alphason HR-100S was only a few hundred dollars more than a Syrinx PU-3, but the difference in sound between these two tone arms was night and day. A Grace F9E sounds like low fi compared to a Dynavector Ruby. The Dynavector Ruby sounds like mid fi compared to an Electro Research EK-1 strain gauge. Simply put, all turntables do not sound the same.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #131 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 11:04 pm »

Wind Chaser (

),

As nearly all of them make music, they (TT's) do sound all the same to me. As CD players don't make music (I have found they only approximate it) - they, too, all sound kinda' the same to me. Not EXACTLY the same in either case, but broadly similar.

I CAN hear differences in both, too....but as one's cash is finite, it is better to direct it to amplification and speakers at this place in time, I think.

It's just all a difference of degree to us all. If you hear huge differences between competing playback models in each format, then, more power to ya'

But, for me - it's clear; better to overspend on vinyl 'cause as least it's music and underspend on CD 'cause it's not music. DVD-A is a good advance on CD, however; spend as you see fit there (but, it looks to be soon obsolete unfortunately)

Again, I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying into vinyl nor was that my intention with this topic. I was relating my experience with CD, even mondo expensive CD, and how it does not correlate to musical content-ness.

Spend as little as possible on either format...but if you overspend, the dollars are better spent on vinyl 'cause as least it's closer to music.

rajacat · « **Reply #132 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 11:20 pm »

TCG,

I think that the problem is that you speak in such absolute terms....like saying that "cd's don't make music". Perhaps a more diplomatic tone would be more widely tolerated. Really it is only your opinion and perhaps you should phrase it differently so not to imply that most of us are not even listening to music and therefore we are just mindless consumers of digits.

Raj

ps...Perhaps we could say that vinyl doesn't make music too. The only music is live music and the both vinyl and cd's approximate it.

stereodad · « **Reply #133 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 11:34 pm »

TCG,

I think both rajacat and konut are giving you good advice.

Larry

Daygloworange · « **Reply #134 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 11:36 pm »

I would agree with rajacat on this one TCG, you continue to bang away at the keys with comments like "CD's just don't make music". After 14 pages of posts with people getting hot under the collar, it would be nice to know that after all these years hear on AC, that you are at least perceptive enough to know that that is going to irk people.

It's becoming a bit of a drone. I'm sure you can get your opinion and personal tastes across without the supremely negative suggestiveness.

Actually, you're starting to sound like a broken record.

Cheers

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #135 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 11:40 pm »

raja (et al),

I'm absolutely as mindless as you, then (truly said in jest here)

I listen to fully 50%+ on CD. It's just that I perceive a great difference between them in musicality.

John

Quote from: rajacat on 19 Feb 2007, 11:20 pm

TCG,

I think that the problem is that you speak in such absolute terms....like saying that "cd's don't make music". Perhaps a more diplomatic tone would be more widely tolerated. Really it is only your opinion and perhaps you should phrase it differently so not to imply that most of us are not even listening to music and therefore we are just mindless consumers of digits.

Raj

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #136 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 11:46 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 17 Feb 2007, 09:40 pm

The new owner of my uber-front end, a local, has invited me over to hear it on his system - he's tickled pink with it (as I was when I first got it marveling at it's dynamics, etc). He has a much more expensive system (biggie Thiel speakers and monstrous Classe monoblocks & preamp) than I (no kids) and has it in a bigger room that my system was ever banished to...so maybe I will like it more over there than here.

I'll bring the wine (it's gotta' only help) and enjoy his excellent company....but probably not the music

Interestingly, the new owner of my old front end just called and left a message ('briefremarks', I need to call you back but was traveling the past two weeks and now I'm off to errands). We've been trying to get together for a while to listen. He's thrilled with it so I'm happy.

As above, he has a bigger room with better equipment than I do, so maybe he hears what I don't (or can't). In my room, with my system, I get equal enjoyment from my funny little system I've cobbled together now.

But, we'll see - I can't see how a couple hours with a good guy and audiophile can ever be anything but good

rollo · « **Reply #137 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 11:55 pm »

Chairguy,

Are you really serious that all TT sound the same?That statement is just unbelievable.Remember Gene Pitts?All amps sound the same.I think he is still regretting that statement.
Anyway,Even Harry Weisfeld of VPI admits that the Scout sounds great compared to the HRX model.Just if you want to spend the extra money to obtain more at the extremes you can but does not recommend it.So in essence you have a valid point about value verses performance but off base IMO about them sounding
the same.That is a tough one to swallow.
Are you saying that the audio press has been fooling or misleading us all these years? Or that audiophiles who hear a difference are wrong?
I know you did not make those statements I did,however its in the realm of reality.I respect your opinion most of the times but that was a bold statement,which many if not all will disagree with.
Could you elaborate on why they all sound the same to you/
Thanks rollo

Double Ugly · « **Reply #138 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 11:56 pm »

Do you ever travel to the southeast, John?

If so, you have a standing offer to come by my place any time. I have a system that I believe defies your assertions, but even if you don't agree after hearing it, we'd have fun listening and filling our bellies w/ my wife's amazing eats.

Unfortunately, the 30 lbs I've gained since meeting her isn't coincidence, so there's little hope for me.

Birmingham, AL is 2 hours away, and Memphis, TN and Jackson MS are approximately 2.5 hours away. I'll even come get you if you find your way to any of the aforementioned, assuming you have a little time to spare.

-Jim

rollo · « **Reply #139 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 12:04 am »

Quote from: Double Ugly on 19 Feb 2007, 11:56 pm

Do you ever travel to the southeast, John?

If so, you have a standing offer to come by my place any time. I have a system that I believe defies your assertions, but even if you don't agree after hearing it, we'd have fun listening and filling our bellies w/ my wife's amazing eats.

Unfortunately, the 30 lbs I've gained since meeting her isn't coincidence, so there's little hope for me.

Birmingham, AL is 2 hours away, and Memphis, TN and Jackson MS are approximately 2.5 hours away. I'll even come get you if you find your way to any of the aforementioned, assuming you have a little time to spare.

-Jim

Chairguy,

You have the same invitation from me.Vinyl,Pipedreams and great Italian food.I will cook for you,then you can tell me my food tastes like Jim's home cooked food.Just kidding about the food the invite still stands.Are you going to the Home Entertainment Show in NYC in May?I am in NYC.
rollo