All CD Players sound the same. All CD Players sound the same?

TheChairGuy · « **on:** 17 Feb 2007, 05:48 pm »

Well, not the same, but less of a difference than many would suggest.

Let me state this to start: I have never heard a convincing demonstration of CD playback at my home, anyone else's, a dealers place or several shows as a superior technology to vinyl for music purposes. As such, I have never heard more than a twit of difference between most CD players. They all try to make music, but cannot. I know, not everyone agree's.....but hell, I brought up the topic

I have tried repeatedly to like the technology; I really have. I love placing those durable shiny discs in and have the luxury of remote control at my fingertips. No crackle, no pop, better dynamics, portability, etc...I realize all of this. But, in the end, a very modest turntable and cartridge combination, combined with vacuum cleaned records, still sounds like music while CD replicates it.

I spent $4500 in Sony/MSB front end, mods, and upgrades to find this out...and sold it recently. I am no less happy with my current set-up, at a cost of $150.00, than I was previously.

Sure, I notice that it doesn't have quite the dynamics....but I'm in a 12 x 15' room, exactly how much dynamics and spl's can you stand? In terms of sheer listenability, I like it better. Far better, in fact.

If you're tired of digi-titus and have already spent enough money on it, here's my prescription for balancing your budget once again, living within your means, and enjoying music every bit as much as previously had with the BIG rig:

* Buy a Coby DVD-207 player for $40.00. It has digital outs if you ever seek to 'upgrade' the internal DAC, a full function remote with volume (so you can run it straight into a power amplifier of choice), the power supply is outside the unit itself and top loading so there is no mechanism to break.
http://www.amazon.com/Coby-DVD-207-Compact-DVD-Player/dp/B0002JY6TK

* Buy a Dakiom 103 ($59) or 203 ($99) Feedback Stabilizer. They work - period - I own the cheaper $59 one.
http://dakiom.com/products.htm

* Ditch the Switched Power Supply and replace with a linear, regulated one from Radio Shack or elsewhere (bass energy will improve over the switched power supply and you eliminate some of the digital hash that pervades your AC line any time you hook up a digital component). ebay is a great place to find gently used ones for under $30.00. Use the (supplied) 12v car adaptor that comes with your Coby and snip off the cigarette lighter side to expose the two bare wires and attach to your new regulated power supply.

Alternative
Got get an OPPO or Cambridge AZUR 540 DVD player with CD and DVD-A capabilites for $150.00 - $250.00. Enjoy what you can of CD playback and truly enjoy the real improvement with DVD-A discs. Add the Dakiom for additional pleasure.

Buy a turntable and cartridge and vacuum record cleaner of modest origins and enjoy a closer attempt at real music than any current digital technology currently can provide.

My suggestions are by no means the only way to enjoy CD, but the one cost effective way that I have found.

jhm731 · « **Reply #1 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 06:14 pm »

Have you heard the EMM Labs, Esoteric w/APL-HIFI Mods or top of the line MSB units?

PS- I've heard the Sony/MSB combo, sold mine too.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #2 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 06:17 pm »

Yes and yes, on #2 and #3. No on the first, unless I didn't know it.

jhm731 · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 06:37 pm »

Interesting. I haven't heard one, but there's a lot of folks over on audiogon that think the APL-HIFI NWO 2.5 competes with the best analog rigs. I'm waiting to hear Alex's new DAC.

I think there's a big difference between the inexpensive players you mention and the EMM Labs gears, but if you're happy with your
analog rig go for it.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 07:48 pm »

For 20 years I've heard the same refrain about CD playback....'listen to the latest from so and so'; 'it's just so analog-like'; 'it'll make you forget about your old turntable and records'.

I attended CES January 2004 and 2005. By that time 2005 show rolled around. I had a fully modded-to-the-hilt MSB Gold Link III fed by a Sony 7700 transport with 192K outs...all modded to heck by Steve at Empirical Audio($2K for that alone). Replete with Revelation Audio Labs umbilical and power cords. Some serious bucks were invested in all that and it sounded good. Relatively speaking, of course

The Sales Manager at MSB, I think his name was Scott, played the latest Platinum player he had. All $8K worth. After 3 minutes I made a hasty retreat to the door no more impressed than any other room. In fact, a bit less impressed by theirs than many others.

Later that day, I ran into Alex of APL and his room. We've met as he and I are locals to Bay area. I spent another 3 minutes in his room - I was unimpressed. Not really his fault...I think there are lots of brilliant minds working on the issue of musicality with CD playback...as there have been for decades now.....but I believe it so flawed from the start in terms of musicality that it's an effective dead end. Let the folks on Audiogon throw more money away to APL trying to chase ever-elusive musicality from CD.

btw, the closest approximation to musicality I heard at that show was Steve Nugent's Empirical room. Not sure what portion of this degree of musicality was born from his modded offerings in CD, amplification, speakers (or even cords), but it was as good as I heard then.

I'm really an optimistic sort, so I hope for a turnaround, but after two decades of hearing much the same in sound and accolades about CD playback....I'm afraid we have all been placing a delicate shade of lipstick on ye' ole' pig with CD

Take the money saved on CD, invest in amplification and or speakers and you'll find greater return on your investment dollars, I believe. DVD-A is a nice upgrade from CD (SACD is not) and when your tired of trying to coax real music out of either digital technology, play a clean record in your modest turntable and see what you've been missing

Jon L · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 08:18 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 17 Feb 2007, 07:48 pm

For 20 years I've heard the same refrain about CD playback....'listen to the latest from so and so'; 'it's just so analog-like'; 'it'll make you forget about your old turntable and records'.

I for one do NOT want my CD's to sound "analogue-like" if that means vinyl. I want it to sound like "digital" well-done. I can enjoy great sounds coming from SOTA tables, but I also recognize that clean vinyl played on SOTA analogue setup is not any closer to the actual musical event recorded than good redbook standard well-produced. IMO, they are just massively different from each other, and when it comes to less-than-well-done efforts on either side, all bets are off and you're on your own.

Now, I won't argue with someone if they prefer the colorations of vinyl to that of redbook; it's our God-given right. My true wish is for native 24bit/192kHz albums that will sound great played from a $40 Walmart special, without watermarking, and perhaps the tide of Blueray via PS3 will somehow end up giving us more truly high-res digital albums by accident. God knows no one is trying to give us more high-res albums on purpose

WEEZ · « **Reply #6 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 09:12 pm »

I know where TCG is coming from. (I didn't even own a digital player until 7 years ago)

Just look at all the attempts over the years to make the cd format sound less digital. There have been countless dac designs over the years that vary all over the place in their technology: over sampling, up sampling, non over sampling, jitter reduction devices, you name it. And after all that, many now use their computer to read the 'bits' claiming zero jitter, and then modify the hell out of whatever dac they have to make it 'better'. Some argue a separate dac is the only way to go. Some argue that the digital cable makes all the difference in the world. Others (like Naim) argue that the dac should be in close proximity to the transport, and separate the power supply instead. And some use batteries.

I surrendered to digital (finally) because if I wanted to buy any new music, it was the most readily available method. It sure has convenience going for it.

WEEZ

eric the red · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 09:31 pm »

After years of swapping cdps (and believe me, I've had plenty go through component central here-Jolidas, Regas, YBA, Classe) to my ears cds still have that sound that's slightly irratating no matter how you flavor it. I've got a Rega Apollo coming next week for one last gasp at getting my 600+ cds to sound 'better' i.e. more listenable but don't have much hope. Yes poorly recorded material will sound bad on both vinyl and on cds, but there's something about that sound coming from most cds that is slightly irratating played through a decent rig. I don't think I've sat down and listened to an entire cd in years from beginning to end unless it's been in my truck on a long drive.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #8 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 09:40 pm »

It's convenient WEEZ, you got it summarized. Says nothing about the music, tho, eh?

I thought I was the last on the CD bandwagon...circa 1993. Actually, it would have been longer for me as my wife bought me a Rotel RCD-965BX for X-Mas that year. I listened, yawningly intent, until I got stupid and decided to ramp up and spend $4500.00 on a 'better' CD front end in 2001-2006.

My head is engaged in the same 10% of the CD's played on my $150.00 front end as it did on the uber-front end I sold recently

10% engaged is probably a proxy for a crap digital recording/playback system from the start. I'm engaged in over 75% of the stuff I play on vinyl on a very modest rig (a JVC DD that sold for $250 new in 1980, a $60 Grado Green and a Nitty Gritty $150 record cleaner). I've got John Abercrombie's "Night" on now and Jan Hammer's keyboards sound like a keyboard, Jack DeJohnette's delicate cymbol brushes are right on, etc.

The new owner of my uber-front end, a local, has invited me over to hear it on his system - he's tickled pink with it (as I was when I first got it marvelling at it's dynamics, etc). He has a much more expensive sytem (biggie Thiel speakers and monstrous Classe monoblocks & preamp) than I (no kids) and has it in a bigger room that my system was ever banished to...so maybe I will like it more over there than here.

I'll bring the wine (it's gotta' only help) and enjoy his excellent company....but probably not the music

ETR - it is hopeless. Get a cheap player and a Dakiom and call CD what it is....one half-step up from DOA.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 10:16 pm »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No offense. "They're looking in the wrong place!" (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

Vinyl is great, I respect its fans because there's no doubt it emphasizes the elements of music that are most dear to me. However, 16/44.1 can be a musical format. However, it's Very Well hidden and takes smart finding out where it is. Non-OS is going in the right direction. Parallel instead of sigma-delta converters are also on the right path. I have had very good luck with battery power for digital conversion. Hard drives, I believe are a superior transport mechanism to optical. Esoteric and Lessloss have something serious with their clocking schemes.

Vinyl has an inherently warmer signature than digital. Thus, a chilly tonal balance in the rest of the rig will highlight the shortcomings and fail to enhance tone. TCG - I've never heard your speakers or amp, but I doubt anyone would call them warm. Your rig looks to me like it's assembled to prove why digital sucks. Even so, I think you'd be pretty surprised what the Altmann converter would do.

Now if you had some of Louis' Hemptones, a pfat tubed preamp, and a nonsurgical DAC I think your opinion would change considerably. That doesn't mean you'd love digital all of a sudden but at least you'd have respect.

shep · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 10:39 pm »

Can one disagree with a Mod. and still be asked back? Ok here goes nothing. All CD players do NOT sound alike. Some are every musical and engaging. Some are god-awful. Having said that I absolutely agree that nothing sounds as "right" as a good analogue set-up. The problem is that a good one is very pricey. I have been both roads. I gave up on vinyl because of the ease of CD's storage and use. I am not sorry and I have no intention of going back. To be honest I don't want to hear what I have been missing! I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet, especially as there is no new format to both replace the cd/digital medium as yet, and certainly nothing in the works that will sound better. I hope I am proved wrong. A while back I read a review, perhaps 6moons, I can't remember, of a radical new approach (obviously expensive!) involving re-reading the source (cd) thru a complex recallibration of the laser as it read, followed by either storage or direct play or burning. It sounded, well was reported to sound wonderful. Maybe it's not too late to save the day? There's too much invested in this medium to junk it and go backwards.

WEEZ · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 11:40 pm »

shep, I'm not going to say that all cd playback sounds the same. It doesn't. But it DOES sound digital.

I spent (3) years searching for a digital player I could stand to listen to for longer than an hour at a time. Just about ANY analog system wouldn't take nearly that level of shopping frustration.....

The best way I know to describe the difference in digital and analog, is that with digital the noise is IN the music. With analog it's SEPARATE from the music.

WEEZ!

miklorsmith · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 11:58 pm »

I know what you mean about noise in the music. It's not inherent in the format though, it's a jitter artifact. Have hope, soothing digital is absolutely possible and doesn't have to cost too much.

WEEZ · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 12:23 am »

Mike, what makes you so sure?

aerius · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 12:27 am »

I used to think CD and vinyl were pretty close, vinyl would have better midrange naturalness and the rest would be either even or better for digital. Granted, I hadn't heard a really good vinyl setup as of then but figured that if the difference between an entry level to high-end rig was about the same as it is for CD players, then I probably wasn't missing too much. Boy was I ever wrong. I had that preconception shattered last year, it ain't even close IMO, analogue still beats the crap out of digital, even if the CD player is an Audio Aero Capitole.

Now, do all CD players sound the same? No, some are downright painful while others aren't bad, and some are actually pretty good. But even with my best CDs there's no way I'm mistaking it for analogue unless I'm stoned or drunk off my butt. It doesn't have the magic reach out and touch it quality, the breath of life or whatever you want to call it.

On the other hand, the convenience of digital is undeniable, I never have to clean my CDs nor fiddle with my CD player, I plop in the disc and push play, that's it, I'm done. No cleaning records, setting up & adjusting my turntable, arm, and cartridge, and did I mention cleaning records? I'd probably need to hire a record cleaning slave if I struck it rich and converted to vinyl.

WEEZ · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 12:32 am »

TCG...look at what you've started

Mike,

I've read your HAHAHA post several times....and before I post what I think I read you to say...would you care to clarify your point?

avahifi · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 12:43 am »

I would like to weigh in on this with a bit of credentials for support.

Inventor of the Longhorn stabilizer that everyone who has tried it agrees a nice help to record playback.

Producer of some darn good CD DACs with always more protos cobbled up on in the lab trying for better yet. Nothing new remotely close to production yet, but I get to hear what you cannot.

At this point in time with the DACs we are shipping now, my Telarc CDs are playing back with every bit as good musicality as my Telarc LP records from the same source originals. Except the CDs have better dynamic range and no noise. The records play back great with our new phono preamp circuits, better than we would have expected, but the CDs win.

There is soooo much to go bad in CD playback. The digital data stream is perfect if the error correction codes are properly followed (almost all do) but there are terrible things to the music that can go wrong in the D to A converter circuits, the digital filter circuits, the analog filter circuits, and the analog output circuits.

For heaven's sake don't blame it all on "being digital," that is the least of the worries.

If you have not heard truly musical CD playback yet, it does not mean it cannot be done, all that means is that you have not heard it yet.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 12:45 am »

Mike/miklorsmith
As you probably know, no one can update our 'systems' page since we changed over to the new AC server several months ago. My system is vastly different than it was back then. A Quicksilver Full Function Preamp (with lovingly large power supply and tubed rectification) feeds two monoblocks of 6CD6 'sweep' tube power (from Dukane).

I've heard several non-surgical 16/44.1 DAC's in action...they are steps in the right direction; and steps back in others. Non-fatiguing, but also missing a great bit of the music recorded. It is strictly a matter of whether you endorse sins of omission or addition with DAC's.

I've not heard 'hemp' drivers, but (with absolutely no offense to my fellow Greek, Louis) I heard the Omega room in 2005 - and it was as non-fatiguing as a digital led system can make things. I also had a Omega 8 pair of speakers here for a time (thank you again Lonewolfny42) and they were outta' here in 72 hours. Absolutely stunning woodwork, open/planar like midrange, but what happened to the last 10% of the sound spectrum? Bring me a tweeter, please....it's another sin of omission vs. addition situation.

Think for a moment: why is there this great movement to tubed gear and single driver speakers? Because rolling off the highs and lows, and 'juicing' up the midrange with tubes helps vastly in allowing one to even sit thru one CD at a time. Yes, I love my tubed gear....but I know exactly why I own it; 'cause CD is unbearable without it and I still do 50% of my listening to it. It's convenient, as has been pointed out, and listening to vinyl while working in my home office is not efficient to do so.

Single drivers? Could it be by eliminating the last 10% of the spectrum of human hearing, the spot where digital is most aggravating, might be the reason for their renaissance after 50 years?

shep
You can disagree with me....this is all just fun and games here at AC. But, if you too are a young guy that is chasing the elusive dream of CD perfection.....live thru my silliness and save your money toward retirement (or, better wine and a top-of-the-line Citroen in your case my French friend

)

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 12:54 am »

Frank van Alstine, inventor of the Longhorn and strong proponent of Plast-i-Clay and friend to analog lovers everywhere

:

It is not that I do not believe you to be sincere, but I have heard similar refrain promised several times in the past 20 years in respect to digital. Again, I am a plucky and optimistic sort by nature, and so I believe in a brighter CD playback of the future.

But, I've been hearing and believing this for two decades now.....it's possibility seems to be dimming with time.

Very Respectfully,

John / TCG

rajacat · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 01:08 am »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 18 Feb 2007, 12:45 am

Mike/miklorsmith
As you probably know, no one can update our 'systems' page since we changed over to the new AC server several months ago. My system is vastly different than it was back then. A Quicksilver Full Function Preamp (with lovingly large power supply and tubed rectification) feeds two monoblocks of 6CD6 'sweep' tube power (from Dukane).

I've heard several non-surgical 16/44.1 DAC's in action...they are steps in the right direction; and steps back in others. Non-fatiguing, but also missing a great bit of the music recorded. It is strictly a matter of whether you endorse sins of omission or addition with DAC's.

I've not heard 'hemp' drivers, but (with absolutely no offense to my fellow Greek, Louis) I heard the Omega room in 2005 - and it was as non-fatiguing as a digital led system can make things. I also had a Omega 8 pair of speakers here for a time (thank you again Lonewolfny42) and they were outta' here in 72 hours. Absolutely stunning woodwork, open/planar like midrange, but what happened to the last 10% of the sound spectrum? Bring me a tweeter, please....it's another sin of omission vs. addition situation.

Think for a moment: why is there this great movement to tubed gear and single driver speakers? Because rolling off the highs and lows, and 'juicing' up the midrange with tubes helps vastly in allowing one to even sit thru one CD at a time. Yes, I love my tubed gear....but I know exactly why I own it; 'cause CD is unbearable without it and I still do 50% of my listening to it. It's convenient, as has been pointed out, and listening to vinyl while working in my home office is not efficient to do so.

Single drivers? Could it be by eliminating the last 10% of the spectrum of human hearing, the spot where digital is most aggravating, might be the reason for their renaissance after 50 years?

shep
You can disagree with me....this is all just fun and games here at AC. But, if you too are a young guy that is chasing the elusive dream of CD perfection.....live thru my silliness and save your money toward retirement (or, better wine and a top-of-the-line Citroen in your case my French friend )

Why not add a super tweeter to single driver speakers? Very easy to hook up, just attach them in series to single driver speakers. The most important mid range where crossovers are a detriment will be covered by the single drivers and most of the bass can be handled by some single drivers.....my Omega Bipoles do a good job with bass. If you want more extension just add dual subs. I suppose you might say that this defeats the purpose of having single drivers but the all important mid range is protected and many 2 and 3 ways still employ subs.

Raj