[Double Ugly]

I usually refrain from posting in the circles of other manufacturers ...

Hmmm... that sounds like a very prudent approach.  It's just my opinion, but I think you should have continued the practice. 

Whatever you have to say, you have your own circle in which to say it, and there are a few 'general' circles where you can post just about anything you want.  Further, any issues - perceived or real - your customers have with the inductors can be handled via e-mail, PM or posts in your own circle.

Manufacturers disagreeing is nothing new, and anyone who's been around AC for any length of time knows those disagreements can quickly turn ugly if those involved don't adhere to the basic tenets of courtesy, respect and decorum.

Bad form, Rick.

[Aether Audio]

Folks,

I could have just deleted this post, but I'm not one to limit free expression nor am I quick to back down from a fight.  In light of the above, here is a "cut & paste" in-full from a reply to an e-mail I received from Rick:

Bob,
 
As a user of the Sledgehammer steel laminate inductors (as well as some of the other manufacturers on Audio Circle) I find your comments to be very interesting. As you know saturation is quite easy to test and I see that you've provided no scientific tests to prove your claims. I find this to be very misleading considering tests have shown these inductors to be a close second to air core inductors in terms of distortion.
 
 
Regards,
 
Rick Craig
Selah Audio

Rick,
 
The reason I haven't provided any tests is because I haven't made any.  If you've read the posts it has been Karsten that has made these observations.  Albeit, he has not taken measurements as he does not have the technical ability. Rather he has simply swapped out the Sledgehammer with other similar units of the same value that he has obtained.  Although his observations are via subjective listening, I trust his judgment implicitly.  He has owned our products for years and knows them better than myself with regards to their sound.  He has much higher quality electronics than we do on top of it.  When a man calls you almost in tears and claims that of all the products he's ever heard (and he's heard a LOT) barely achieve 50% of what his modified Revelations are producing, you tend to take his word for it.
 
As you well know, there's no "black magic" involved here.  There are basically only two mechanisms by which an inductor can introduce significant distortion - saturation and hysteresis.  What neither of us know is what the quality control is within Winslow's facilities.  Do you know how old those tests are or any specifics regarding the results?  Unless they do a minimum of sample batch testing, their vendor may have slipped them some cheap steel without their ever knowing it. 
 
I'm sure they were provided with quality material when they were specifying and testing samples, but who knows whether or not they've been defrauded since.  If their vendor is of Chinese origin, this would not be uncommon.  In terms of industrial applications, perceived importance and competitive pressures, I doubt Winslow is able or willing to pay for "mil spec" quality in the first place - let alone implement a quality assurance program that prevents inferior materials from getting through.  "When in doubt...ship it out." I have worked in extremely high power electronic engineering and was directly involved in sourcing magnetic core materials, so I know what goes on out there.  Is this proof of anything?  No.  But I'll bet it can be proven.  The bottom line though is that any such proof is academic in the first place.  The only people that really care are guys like you and me.  High-end audio is all about the end result.  The only thing audiophiles care about is the "sound" - specs be damned.  In that regard, we can certainly "prove" the Sledgehammers (as they have been shipped recently, anyway) have a problem and are inferior.
 
Sincerely,
Robert (Bob) Smith
SP Technology Loudspeakers, Inc.
3999 E. Hupp Rd.
Bldg. R-5-4
La Porte IN  46350
Voice (219) 393-1116
FAX   (219) 393-6010
www.4sptech.com

In addition to the above, I don't have time to do the required testing.  Those that need further evidence are free to undertake that task.  As for me, Karsten has already settled the matter.

-Bob

[Karsten]

I'm normally not in favour of criticising specific brand names in public, but now this is out in the open anyway I will add the following observations.

The Revelations I have now is my second set, I had the first set for a good period of time. First time I heard my current set was at T.H.E. Show last year. I very quickly had to point out to Bob that there was a problem with the bass performance compared to the set I had at home. We spend a fair amount of time re stuffing the speakers etc. However they never became as good as I expected them to be.

Some months ago I got this set here and again I noticed the difference in bass performance and it eventually lead to the discovery I did.

To me this indicates that there has been changes to the core material at some point, one way or another. I know that my old set of Revelations can still be improved in bass performance, since my new set is clearly a lot better than that set now. However I can't say if that particular inductor is in fact up to specs but not big enough for the bass system or vice verse.

Karsten

[Rick Craig]

I usually refrain from posting in the circles of other manufacturers ...

Hmmm... that sounds like a very prudent approach.  It's just my opinion, but I think you should have continued the practice. 

Whatever you have to say, you have your own circle in which to say it, and there are a few 'general' circles where you can post just about anything you want.  Further, any issues - perceived or real - your customers have with the inductors can be handled via e-mail, PM or posts in your own circle.

Manufacturers disagreeing is nothing new, and anyone who's been around AC for any length of time knows those disagreements can quickly turn ugly if those involved don't adhere to the basic tenets of courtesy, respect and decorum.

Bad form, Rick.

I considered posting something in my circle but thought it would be better to address it here. It's certainly Bob's prerogative to advise his customers as he chooses; however, I felt that the other side of the story should be told. My concern is that the supplier should be given the benefit of the doubt until the parts are tested. Previous independent tests of these inductors have been very positive and I've not seen any other complaints about them.

I know that some people would be upset with me posting but after I received a PM about the parts in question I decided to respond. With the 1.4mh part a 16awg air core inductor would've been my first choice because it is a little lower in distortion (but slightly higher in d.c. resistance). For the 10mh part that Steven mentioned it becomes more complicated because of the transfer function of the circuit.

[Aether Audio]

Folks,

Before any further controversy erupts and any charges of slander or liable are made, I suppose I had better write a little disclaimer. 

To be succinct, I will say that in our specific application, the Mundorf inductors are superior to the Sledgehammers in their present form.  Conversely, the Sledgehammer devices have a problem and are inferior to the Mundorf devices when applied to our loudspeaker designs.  This claim is based solely upon subjective listening tests and is therefore, open to interpretation. SP Technology has not performed any quantitative analysis and therefore, is not in the position to back up this claim with any scientific evidence nor do we suggest that the Sledgehammer device will not work as advertised in other products provided by other manufacturers.

Robert A.Smith - President
SP Technology Loudspeakers, inc.

THERE!  Now…anybody that wants to continue a debate can go pound sand!  Geesh.  Ya know, this whole high-end audio business is completely governed by a worldwide collective set of subjective opinions that are eternally in flux…in the first place.  In the grand scheme of things, it’s nothing but a bunch of “opinions” anyway.  Most of the time scientific “facts” don’t amount to a hill of beans to the vast majority.  Some guru says this or that product is the new “bomb” and half the world believes it and the other half wants to kill the guy.  What difference does Karsten’s or my opinion make?  Even if I had done all the scientific testing and could prove the Sledgehammer’s had some significant problem, how many folks would scoff at that?  Plenty, I assure you.  I learned a long time ago that you can’t prove water is wet to a fish that has its mind made up otherwise.

It all comes down to integrity and faith.  Who do you believe?  Why?  If you believe something someone says, do you have good reasons to do so?  Are you an idiot that believes something just because it’s popular to do so?  Do you refute what someone suggests just to be obstinate?

If anybody believes Karsten and I, I’d like to think its because we have exhibited honesty and truthfulness in the past.  I hope its based on our integrity rather than because, well…everybody else seems to be “jumping on board” at the moment.  You should never completely believe anyone without getting to know them first.  For those that have been following this thread and don’t know us – take every word that I or any other representative of SP Tech would write with a grain of salt.  We want you to believe us only because you “believe in” us.  Anything less than that and whatever we say is little more than a bunch of meaningless keystrokes floating around in cyberspace.

As far as the Mundorf coil goes and why it is superior to the Sledgehammer…maybe the Mundorf is superior from a measured standpoint.  I tend to believe that could ultimately be proven to be the case, but I could be wrong.  Maybe it is superior, but science doesn’t know how to measure it.  Maybe the arrangement of its silicon and iron atoms produce a…“quantum string conduit that creates a form of direct communication with the woofer’s voice-coil, thereby forming a type of feed-forward intelligence path such that the inductor anticipates any distortion the woofer might produce and corrects for it before said distortion is able to form.”

Then again, maybe the Mundorf is actually inferior and Karsten’s hearing works inversely from what is considered normal or… maybe we both really do believe we’re on to something but we’re just full of crap.  Finally, maybe we’re both just flat-out lying.  In the end it’s just about some stupid inductors in some stupid speakers.  Is anybody going to loose any sleep over it?  Will someone’s kid develop cancer because of it?  I suppose there are a few that are worried they might loose a few bucks because of all this stink – but I doubt it.  In defense, all they have to do is point at the source and claim we’re a bunch of idiots.  Now how in the world am I going to disprove that? 

-Bob

[Karsten]

Haha Bob, you sure have a way with words 

I still find it funny that you don't yet know how good you own speakers really are 

I really feel like returning your comment from before I got my first set of Timepiece 2.0 "Just crank up the expectations, you wont get disappointed" Well I did surely not 
Now I have to put up a warning sign here for people to see before entering:
"Warning: Listening to SP Tech speakers is highly addictive, may cause loss of sleep until and after purchase. We do not allow kids to be traded in, wives only at special dispensation and on trial basis"

[Aether Audio]

Karsten,

I really like the "trial basis" thing.  Getting stuck with a speaker that screams at you is one thing, but "inter-marital modulation distortion"  is the worst kind there is!!!

Oh...I forgot a "maybe" from my previous post.  Come to think of it, "maybe" the reason nobody has noticed that there was an issue with the Sledgehammer inductors... was because their speakers aren't revealing enough to notice the difference.  Nah...couldn't be.

-Bob

[Karsten]

Just a small correction to a previous statement of mine saying that the Revelation bass system requires loads of power. I have to eat those words again. After settling some room issues and a few setup tweaks, I'm getting amazing results with a 70W Berning ZH270. It is actually able to shake the building with dead clean subsonic bass......Hmmm.....

Karsten

[Freejazz]

Very cool Karsten ... the great thing about this crazy hobby is that we can still be surprised!

Just a small correction to a previous statement of mine saying that the Revelation bass system requires loads of power. I have to eat those words again. After settling some room issues and a few setup tweaks, I'm getting amazing results with a 70W Berning ZH270. It is actually able to shake the building with dead clean subsonic bass......Hmmm.....
Karsten

So the upgrade makes it that much easier to drive the Revelations?

Are you running Berning full-range with the Belles as the preamp?  At which setting on the feedback control are you operating the ZH-270?

Glad to hear you are still having fun!

Scott

[Karsten]

Scott,

Yes, still room for surprises 

The Revelations are a substantially easier load to drive after the upgrade, no doubt about this.
The Berning amp does the best job connected directly to my Orpheus DAC, without a preamp. And yes, it is driving these Revelations full range, I'm using normal feedback mode.

Yesterday I listened to Yello "Pocket Universe" rather amazing that this little light weight tube amp could literally shake the room the way it did...

I'm having fun for sure 

Karsten

[Karsten]

Well finally this arrived:



Although the basic configuration is pretty much settled, it is going to be fun to see how extra can be gained by the exotic stuff. Only problem is that they already sound spectacular, actually people are pretty much blown away by current performance and telling me that there is not a single "issue" they can put their finger on.....

Hmm, not even sure I can take more myself, I'm afraid that eventually the nice men in the fine white clothes may have to drag me away from the speakers  aa

Well back to reality, depending on the result, this may end up with an optional "ultimate performance" upgrade package, probably with an external cross over, anyway, future music 

Karsten

[Karsten]

I have been listening to this for a couple of days:


It is made with top of the line Mundorf components.

Right now I'm trying to figure out how to describe what I'm hearing...... I may have to invent some new terms... It is simply beyond anything I have ever heard before of ever thought remotely possible. I'm totally blown away speachless.... It may not even be possible to describe, it will have to be experienced to understand.... Sort of a holographic organic happening right in front of you... I'll try to think of words but everything that comes to mind has had the true meaning washed out already.

Karsten

[BrunoB]

I have been listening to this for a couple of days:

Thanks for the nice pic. Looks much cleaner that my own external XO. These Mundorf caps are huge.
BTW, it is good that you have an external XO - it is so loud inside a speaker box!

[Russell Dawkins]

Karsten, I don't fully understand what I'm looking at here. It looks like the inductor with the laminated core is foil wound, but as far as I know this is impossible. If so, what is the foil in its vicinity?

That is one massive capacitor!

[Bill Baker]

VERY nice Karsten as well as very clean. I think you would be fine by just placing a nice acrylic cover over what you have there to show off the goodies. What are you using for the board you have all the parts mounted to?
 So how many hours do you have on the new crossovers?

[Karsten]

Russel: Yes it is a foil wound laminated inductor, a cft106. If it is impossible, it works better than it should  I like it better than the zero ohm n106 actually, it seems to integrate the bass better with the music somehow.

Bill: Thanks, I like to go into detail with stuff I could have made it look nicer, but prefer to keep the signal path as short as possible. The board is supplied by Mundorf as well. The cross overs has about 100 hours on them now and the good is getting better.....

Last week I had a guy coming by no less than 3 times to listen. First time impressed him enough to return the day after with some equipment of his own. Then I did the upgrade and slipped him a mail about it. He then came the third time. The instant he came through the door his eyes just went wide open and he said WOW! that is the kind of highs that will make most any music sound great.

So it is a dramatic change. I have always loved the SP speakers for their accuracy and extreme level of detail, yet I'm now discovering a lot of new details in my recordings I never noticed before. There is just so much going on at the same time all in it's own little space of the "scene". Another thing is that the music almost seems to be turning liquid with a fantastic flow to it.

What also impresses me is that a lot of recordings which had sort of what I would call "a slight digital harshness" to them, sounds substantially better, so my digital front end is actually a lot better than what i thought and the same for a lot of recordings. So it is not the kind of upgrade that limits you to a few audiophile recordings, but actually enables you to enjoy a lot more different material for what it really is.

Especially live recordings are a lot of fun, because so much is happening on and around the stage that suddenly becomes apparent.

So it is a lot about micro details and micro dynamics. More to come..

Karsten

[TomS]

Karsten - Is that beast the same crossover that Bob is putting in the current Revelation builds he has going on or is this still the R&D phase?  Tom

[Karsten]

Karsten - Is that beast the same crossover that Bob is putting in the current Revelation builds he has going on or is this still the R&D phase?  Tom

Tom - I'm testing a lot of stuff here, currently top of the line Mundorf. This will be offered as an optional "ultimate" upgrade. Just one of those big caps is 200 usd, which adds up to more than can be figured into the base price. All SP products will however be delivered with exclusively Mundorf components from now on, but as standard it will be "mid level" components.

Karsten

[Bill Baker]

Wow, that's a whole lotta money for a cap. Luckily I am a believer in boutique components. DO keep us posted on your listening experience.

[TomS]

Thanks Karsten.  I know when I talked to Bob he said all new production coming out would have the Mundorfs, just didn't really say which ones.  Is it likely that due to the size this variant would only be done outboard?