[Al Garay]

It's been awhile since people have reported on their experiences integrating the Ellis 1801s with the SCC300. I have a driver on its way. So, I'm real curious to hear an update from Nikko  and EProven among others who have the combo.

Nikko, I'm really curious about the dimensions on your cabinet. I recall that yours is 4.0cf while EProven went with 3.5 same as Dave's. Nathan Salazar has been very happy with his 3.0cf cabinet. Though, he has a smaller room. Mine is 17'wide x 22' long x 8' tall and the back is open to a second level where the kitchen and dining room are... it's a tri-level.

Jackman, have you made any progress on your cabinet?

Al

[EProvenzano]

Hi Al.

Funny I read this today. I'm not here as regularly as bafore but glad I caught your questions.

I'm loving these subs. I've gone about 6 months without any desire for an upgrade....big accomplishment for me! The subs were my last addition with the exception a few diy interconnects.
The SCC300 is an excellent musical performer. The only trick to integrating these in my system was to modify my PE amps to 4th order slopes. I was simply having too much xo overlap. I'm still running my 1801's full range, and although I'm craving an active XO (Nikko you lucky dog) to experiment with, they sound fantastik with a little more oomph in the first octave.
To be honest my system sounds so good to me, I'm not as eager to take on the 1801b mods. When I've got some time to kill this winter I may give it a shot. I'm loving the detail from the 1801a, and will likely try the 1801b with the flattest tweeter option.
I've been meaning to get pictures posted of my SCC300's but summer projects and twin boys have put a hold on the veneer for these boxes. Maybe this fall I'll wrap these in a nice Maple or Birch veneer.

I did opt for 3.65^3ft with 1.5" construction all aroud except for 1" top and bottom. I chose to go with a narrow baffle at 14" and taller at 24" compared to most enclosures I've seen with similar volume. I like the look of a narrow box and in theory this should offer better baffle stiffness around the dirver. I did follow Dave's recommendation to mount the driver at the bottom of the cabinet. This theories behind this make sense to me. Automotive vibration damping sheets line the inside walls, then a layer of accoustic foam and polyester batting loosly stuffed behind the driver finished off the insides.

Recently, my room has offered me the most challenges since I removed the wall to wall carpet in favour of porcelain tile. Can you say echo echo echo...I've been playing around with diy room treatments and lately learned a ton of great ideas from a few new manufacturers here.
I think before I re-enter a circle of upgraditis, I will spend some time optimizing my room.
...am I rambling again?

Any wayz, the subs are great and a terrific compliment to the 1801's.

[Al Garay]

It's great to hear from you EP! Your box sounds very much like Dave recommends... narrow and tall. Did you use any internal bracing? If so, how far apart, vertical or horizontal, circular holes or ovals?

Did you use MDF or plywood?

Thanks,

Al

[jackman]

EProvenzano,

Hi E, if you like the 1801a version and are using subs, I would not go for the b's.  Although I liked the difference, I'm not currently using a sub.  The new crossover allowed me to pull the speakers well into the room without losing too much bass (helped imaging as a result of the placement).  This doesn't seem to be an issue for you because you are using subs.

Please post pictures of the subs for reference.  Your 1801's are probably my favorite ones, in terms of looks, anywhere.  That walnut is amazing.  Also, are your subs bottom or forward firing?

Thanks,

Jack

[EProvenzano]

It's great to hear from you EP! Your box sounds very much like Dave recommends... narrow and tall. Did you use any internal bracing? If so, how far apart, vertical or horizontal, circular holes or ovals?

Did you use MDF or plywood?

Thanks,

Al

Yes, a set of cross braces. The brace that runs parallel with the baffle has a huge 12" hole directly behind the driver so there is nothing behind the driver except for some loosely placed poly batting. Above the large hole I cut 4 smaller holes also. The front to back brace is only in the top half of the cabinet because the driver and amp are on the bottom half. Lots of smaller 4" holes in those braces too. I didn't concern myself with hole shape and just used a 4" hole saw...don't tell me I made a huge mistake and I should scrap these shitty subs  I did round over the edges of the holes
Construction is all MDF. Glued and screwed butt joints. Screws in place of clamps because I didn't have enuff clamps. Lots of glue is the ticket. I have no air leaks and these things are as solid as a vault.
I recently did an experiment with mass loading and found the sub had no audible improvement with a 100lb slab of concrete on top. As it is, the subs weigh in at 125lbs each.
However, I found a worthy improvement by adding sheets of automotive vibration damping to the inside walls.  I was easily able to compare one sub with the damping sheets and one without. My audio jargon is on the weak side but, in simple terms I think the sound is more clean. The untreated sub in comparison was more muffled sounding. This was a minor difference by the way, but easily noticable in a side by side test. It is probably not unlike the damping compound that VMPS sells for treating their cabinets. I purchased the sheets from a auto body repair shop for $120CND. That would be about $80USD for 2 cabinets.

Nice seeing you too!

Thanks
BR,
EP

[EProvenzano]

EProvenzano,

Hi E, if you like the 1801a version and are using subs, I would not go for the b's.  Although I liked the difference, I'm not currently using a sub.  The new crossover allowed me to pull the speakers well into the room without losing too much bass (helped imaging as a result of the placement).  This doesn't seem to be an issue for you because you are using subs.

Please post pictures of the subs for reference.  Your 1801's are probably my favorite ones, in terms of looks, anywhere.  That walnut is amazing.  Also, are your subs bottom or forward firing?

Thanks,

Jack

Hey Jack!
I agree with your take on the B mod. I will save it for a rainy day. Dave, as always, is an honest friend first and a sales person second, since he also recommends that the $100 may be better spent some where else. For me, it will go to room treatments first.
I'll put some pictures up soon but they are ugly MDF boxes...nothing special to look at.
The subs are forward firing.

Take care.
BR,
EP

[Al Garay]

I'm sorry EP. The holes in the braces are not up to code. I must take possession of your subs. Being a nice guy, I will split the shipping charges with you.

It's always interesting to read about what people use for dampening material. I have a bunch of underlayment left over from my laminate floor installation. The sponge stuff is called quiet walk and it looks like a good substitute for BlackHole5. I've also heard people using roofing 30lb felt. I'll check out the automotive stuff next time I visit a Napa Auto shop.

I received my new SCC300 driver today. And I can see why all of you have said it is impressive. It is very impressive. Good looking as well. I sold my Stryke AV15 driver after I realized how big a cabinet I would need ... it failed in the SAF. Plus, it needs a big amp. Luckly, I recovered what I paid for it.

What did you use for internal wiring? Did you use Goertz? I've heard the thicker the gauge the better for the current flow which is better for deeper bass. So, 0 gauge ought to be perfect.  

Al

PS. Nikko must not be around...

[bubba966]

However, I found a worthy improvement by adding sheets of automotive vibration damping to the inside walls.

EP,

Hope you don't mind me asking, but what was the name of the damping sheets you used? If it's not Dynamat, is it something similar?

Asking as I've got a large chunk of Dynamat Extreme that I've not alotted to any use yet. And while I don't have much of a problem with muffled/muddy bass with my subs(Al's not complained. They're about the only thing he's ever really cared for in my setup...), I know that cleaner low end can be had.

Al,

Sorry to cut in a bit on your thread. But I was a tad curious about the damping sheets.

[Al Garay]

Me too. I would like to know what the dampening (sp?) sheet is called and whether it's available at a regular auto supply shop or a specialty auto body type shop. Actually, if you give me a product name, I can find the rest?

I got a great deal on a Hypex HS200 amp. Ken Martinez was selling one in Madisound forum.  This should make a nice combo with the SCC300... I'm going to have to buy some very long IC cables.

EP, what are you using for internal wiring? For my 1801s, I'm using the Goertz wire provided by Dave. I was thinking of using some solid core copper 12gauge or 10 gauge wire.

Al

[EProvenzano]

The damping sheets came in a generic brown wrapper with some numbers on them. I have my buddy checking into the manufacturer for us.
I didn't do anything special for internal wiring. I used the hookup wire already supplied with the PE plate amp. When I stumble onto some good wire I'll swap it in.
The Goertz foil is great stuff. Goertz MI2 Pythons replaced my CVH Cat5 and JR CC89259. The Cat5 was equal to the Pythons in bass performance, but in all other categories the Pythons won out. I enjoyed making the CC89259 and it is an excellent cable, but I think it can be easily beaten if you can spend a bit more.
If I had planned ahead, I would have purchased a few extra feet of Python for my subs...doh!

BR,
EP

[Al Garay]

I really like Goertz speaker cables as well. I can thank Jackman for giving me a good deal on a set of MI-1s. The Pythons would be a really nice choice for internal sub wiring. I'll see if I have anything else to get from Dr. J. I know I will need to get long IC cables... really long ones to connect my preamp to the Hypex plate-amp and to my AKSA monoblocks. I've been really happy with the ICs I got from Vampire Wire. So, I may just buy some 12 gauge CCC internal wiring for the sub and call it good.

Thanks,

Al

[bubba966]

Al,

I've got about 45' of 10AWG solid copper sitting around here. I'd be happy to give you a few feet to try using in your sub if you'd like.

[Al Garay]

Sure. I'll try.

I gotta get busy watching the movie I borrowed and doing the color adjustment on my TV... if I can get the girls off of the Disney channel.

[David Ellis]

I always hoped the "clansmen" herein would self-sustain the issues on the forum.  This is certainly an example of excellent information being shared!  Thanks Emilio for being the lead on this issue.  I especially appreciate you taking the time to a/b the cabinets with the automotive dampening material.  I also apprecaite your comments about the 4th order crossover modifications to the PE amps.  Both of these findings have very good theoretical ground.  

About the only thing I might add to this discussion is that I hear NO difference among internal wiring with subwoofers.  I suppose some 30ga wire might have an impact, but this would be foolish.  I think that anything in the 12-16 ga copper arena will be fine.

Again, thanks for your comments guys.  It is very nice to see this happening.

Back to assembling shelves.

Dave

[EProvenzano]

Nice hearing from you Dave!

What? you've decided to craft shelves instead of cabinets  
I'm sure your shelves are stunning. Watco-Oil brew or rubbed lacquer?

My thinking behind the vibration sheets was to create a composite damping solution in the cabinets. Like many others, I cannot afford Black Hole 5, but their idea of having a multi density multi layer damping sheet makes sense. No one single density compound can effectively tame all vibrations or sounds emitting from the cabinet. So, my poor man's approach entailed using Automotive Vibration sheets, Acoustic Foam and Poly batting. I figured all three in combination would out perform any one by itself.  

BR,
EP

[stvnharr]

Everyone here is making a 3-4 cu.ft. box for the SCC300.  Is 3 cu.ft. the minimum size?   Has anyone tried a box half that size?
Also, Hypex? Kiega?  Difference?

[David Ellis]

The sad truth of cabinets is that bigger is better. This holds true in other matters too, but for cabients the issue of bigger is better is rooted in the T/S paramters.  The T/S parameters are tied to a cabinet size.  While there can be some variation, there should be very little of this.  The result of extreme variation will be a grossly underdamped or overdamped woofer.  It might sound very lean or very boomy.

These remarks assume a correctly implemented woofer in a cabinet.  I such systems the following is true.

1.  Bigger cabinets produce deeper bass.

2.  Bigger cabinets are more sensitive.

3.  Smaller cabinets produce shallower bass

4.  Smaller cabinets are less sensitive.

Sacrificing sensitivity or bass depth will allow a smaller cabinet.  Some folk s are glad to accept less bass for their smaller cabinet.

I must also offer that there appears to be an easy fix the big cabinet problem - plate amp equalization.  Some folks have done this with success, but there is NO free lunch.  This is because the DRIVER is almost always (I haven't seen an exception yet)  less sensitive in the bass region and it WILL suffer increased thermal compression due to the power required to drive low frequencies.

A big cabinet subwoofer might actually be 90db at 35hz.  Using a smaller cabinet woofer that will only be 81db at 35hz will require 8x the power from the plate amp to produce the same energy AFTER equalization.  This doesn't seem terrible for the plate amp.  It is easy to buy a more powerful plate amp,  BUT what about the woofer's voice coil??  The woofer needs  to dissipate 8 x the watts in the form of heat.  The voice coil WILL run hotter and there WILL be more thermal compression.

I think 3 cubic feet is the minimum size for the SCC300, but 3.5 or 4 cubic feet might be better.  This will decrease the cabinet spring effect on the woofer and create a slightly overdamped woofer (better ratio of damping).  The result will allso be slightly more energy at 20hz.

I am not in a postion to comment on variations in plate amps.  My Apex did just fine, but I have never used the others.

Dave

[stvnharr]

Thanks for the good and detailed information!

[Al Garay]

If you are really wanting a musical sub that comes in a small cabinet, look at:

* Selah Audio Whomp!
   http://www.selahaudio.com/whomp.html
   Uses 12" Peerless XLS driver and Keiga plate-amp with boost on.
   The beauty is that it's a 14" cube.  Havardian says it's more musical
   than the VMPS larger sub (though it will not have the low end extension).

Or choose from the following that use Adire Audio drivers
* http://www.rutledgeaudiodesign.com/subs.htm
* http://www.diycable.com
* http://www.creativesound.ca

These all offer smaller cabinets (14-16" cube) than the 4.0cf I'm using with SCC300 and Hypex HS200.

Al