Newbie iMod impressions and comparison to Nano (2G)

DougR · « **on:** 9 Feb 2007, 06:23 pm »

Hi all,

First off, thanks for the tremendous service Vinnie! To receive my iMod 3 days after ordering it, when I was ready to wait 2-4 weeks really gets things off on the right foot -- not to mention that you must have shipped the thing from the hospital waiting room

I only have about 12 hours of burn-in on my iMod so far -- about 2 hours listening to it today, and 10 hours overnight with the amp powered-off. Here's my setup:

iMod line-out -> 6" Cardas HPI cable -> HeadRoom Micro Amp (desktop module) -> Grado SR60 cans

Oh yeah, and I use all lossless encodes.

Comparing it head-to-head with my ipod Nano (2nd gen) with Sendstation line-out dock, the sound of the iMod is fuller, and the bass is superior quality by far: tighter and more well-defined. Vocals are also more believable -- it sounds like Eric Clapton, not just like an Eric Clapton song, if that makes sense. On the negative side, the soundstage seems smaller, and the music feels closed-in to me. It's as if the soundstage is 2-dimensional, where it sounds airy and 3-dimensional on my Nano setup. A few people have mentioned their brand-new iMods sounding "congested" -- is this what you mean?

I can't say that the sound thrills me yet, but it's definitely promising. I welcome any comments, or advice for getting the most out of my setup!

Doug

Levi · « **Reply #1 on:** 9 Feb 2007, 06:43 pm »

You have a nice setup Doug. I would try the AKG701 to compare with your SR60. We compared the SR60 against the AKG701 and Sennheiser 600's. The SR60 is great for the money but most liked the Sennheiser 600 and the AKG701. I liked the AKG701 because it is more natural sounding against the three. I would rank it AKG701, Sennheiser 600 and SR60. That's just my findings.

The iMod (4th Gen iPod) is an excellent sounding unit. Vinnie does excellent work no doubt.

Worth every penny even if you make apples-to-apples comparison.

Good job Vinnie! I just hope he starts modding the new iPod video.

DougR · « **Reply #2 on:** 9 Feb 2007, 07:48 pm »

Levi, I think you should change your AudioCircle title to "Enabler"

It's funny you mention the AKG701 though, because those are the cans I would most like to audition. And you're right, at some point I will need to upgrade my headphones, but I'm not sure that my wife is going to understand why her Christmas present (Nano) has already resulted in me buying ANOTHER iPod, and 3 amps! Long story... Anyway, the SR60's predate this madness, and you're right, they're wonderful for the money. I've essentially been avoiding trying the higher end stuff.

Here's another question for you though -- are there any high-end closed headphones you would recommend, or know to be highly regarded? It looks like the top-of-the-line from Senn, Grado, AKG, and Beyer are all open designs. Do you have to go with IEMs to keep your music to yourself?

It doesn't sound like Vinnie's going to be modding the iPod video. I think I'm ok with that decision. I like the newer form-factor, and the bigger disk, but at least it doesn't blow the 4G out of the water; I feel like I can trade all those other features for the better audio quality. My hope is that eventually there's another iPod design worthy of his attention. Eventually something will appear that has much longer battery life, higher capacity, smaller size, etc, etc, that will make it more compelling than an iPod Photo. Plus, you'd assume that refurb iPod photos will eventually become hard to find, right?

Doug

Levi · « **Reply #3 on:** 9 Feb 2007, 08:09 pm »

I am not a big headphones fan. But recently acquired an SE tube headphone amp and using a crapy Sony digital cans.

If highend headphone is on my list, the Stax Sm007t tube output headphone driver/Stax Electrostatics ( Lambda Nova) and or Ray Samuel's 12AU7 Phono pre/amp "raptor" combo would be on my short list.

The best person to ask about headphone system is your one and only, "immtbiker" (he is head-fi leader/coordinator).

As you can see on the table, there are over $10K+ worth of headphone rigs. That's immtbiker.

cfcjb · « **Reply #4 on:** 9 Feb 2007, 10:17 pm »

Doug, you still have quite a ways to go with regards burn in. Those black gate caps take a full 200 hours to really loosen up. The sound stage should widen considerably. Saying that, the Grados are not known for throwing out a massive soundstage. They are more up front and detail oriented. None the less, you will hear a considerable difference after say 100 plus hours and then smaller incremental differences up to 200 hours.

cfcjb · « **Reply #5 on:** 9 Feb 2007, 10:22 pm »

"Here's another question for you though -- are there any high-end closed headphones you would recommend, or know to be highly regarded? It looks like the top-of-the-line from Senn, Grado, AKG, and Beyer are all open designs."

Audio Technica ATH-W1000. Really wonderful sounding headphones. Big bang for the buck.

http://6moons.com/audioreviews/audiotechnica/winning.html

J.

DougR · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Feb 2007, 10:50 pm »

Thanks cfcjb -- I'm going to be dilligent about the burn-in, and we'll see where it goes. I have a new Ray Samuels Hornet to burn-in as well

It shouldn't be too hard to leave things playing overnight for a few weeks. That's a helpful point about the Grado's; I don't have a ton of experience with audiophile headphones, but I'm very attuned to soundstage and imaging. I originally bought the SR60s for some voice applications at work, and they worked like a charm for subtle details. I'll take a look at the W1000 review..

And Levi, now you're really trying to be a bad influence! I'll admit to having looked at the Raptor but not the Stax.. I've spent plenty of time reading threads on Head-fi, mostly about portable amps, and of course all the iMod threads Vinnie linked. Somebody please tell me that $10K of headphone gear isn't an ~inevitable~ progression from here -- reading Head-fi is not encouraging on that front

Doug

Levi · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Feb 2007, 11:12 pm »

Hi Doug, I am just trying to introduce you some nice things. One don't need to spend lots of cash to enjoy good music. I am sure we all can agree.

Remember, I am the one who has a crappy headphones.

Enjoy your awesome iMod!

cfcjb · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 Feb 2007, 01:03 am »

Doug I own a Ray Samuels SR-71 portable amp. I hear only good things about the Hornet. I also happen to own a pair of Grado SR325is and the Audio Technica 1000s. The Grados are wonderfully detailed but very in your face. The Technicas offer a more expansive soundstage while delivering a slightly more subtle presentation. I like them both, it's a matter of horses for courses.
Keep burning your Imod it will most definitely change. May I also respectfully suggest that you will probably hear more from your Imod with a slight upgrade of your cans. They are not going to do your IMod/Hornet combo full justice. No rush, they will still do you proud but there's no doubt in my mind a better set of headphones will deliver you all the goods and then some.

Regards,

J.

slwiser · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 Feb 2007, 08:24 am »

Lately I am listening to my new Ultrasone Proline 2500s. I have had the ATH-W1000, ATH-W1000, ATH-A900LTD and I have the ATH-W5000 powered by the AT-HA5000 ampilifier. I love the sound of the W5000s but for the price you may want to give the Ultrasone's a chance. They sound different from any headphone I have heard. I have also own at one time the Beyer DT880, AKG K81DJ, Grado SR-80 and Ety4Ps

If you can get a listen to a burned in pair of these try them. You may find this everything you ever wanted in a headphone. I got my for about 265$ US shipped from NorthernSound.net .

They sound comparitively bad out of the box but the wait for the first 100 hours with pick noise is worth it. I am working on my second 100 hours and then it should be fully burned in as I had heard it really takes 200 hours.

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #10 on:** 14 Feb 2007, 03:02 am »

Hi DougR,

Welcome to Audiocircle and the RWA forum! (and thanks for your first post on the baby thread!

)

Quote

Doug, you still have quite a ways to go with regards burn in. Those black gate caps take a full 200 hours to really loosen up. The sound stage should widen considerably. Saying that, the Grados are not known for throwing out a massive soundstage. They are more up front and detail oriented. None the less, you will hear a considerable difference after say 100 plus hours and then smaller incremental differences up to 200 hours.

cfcjb hit the nail on the head! What you are hearing is totally normal with new BG caps, and YES, the sound stages widens mucho once you burn in those caps.

The best way to burn them in is to keep your iMod playing music on repeat mode and connected to your amp. The amp does not need to be ON, but the iMod MUST be connected and playing music (ideally, something with a lot of bass and top end).

If you really want to speed up the burn in, buy a 1/8" stereo plug and solder a 5k resistor (a 1/8 or 1/4 watt resistor will be fine) from the L+ pin to GND and another 5k resistor from R+ pin to GND. Plug it in, play music on repeat for a few days, and then let us know what you hear! aa

Most headphone amps don't have an input impedance as low as 5k. For example, if it is 100k, it will draw 20x less current from the iMod than using 5k resistors.

The more current flows, the faster the break-in. Of course, I wouldn't go much lower than 5k because there is such a thing as over doing it

Thanks for your post and everyones responses while I was away,

Vinnie

DougR · « **Reply #11 on:** 14 Feb 2007, 05:28 am »

Hi Vinnie,

Thanks for the kind welcome! And by the way, your daughter Isabella is gorgeous -- how did you get her to smile for a picture already? It looks like she was wrapped in the exact same hospital blanket as my little girl too...you didn't come back to Boston (the Brigham?) to have the baby did you?

I definitely appreciate the advice from cfcjb; it eased my mind as I was just starting the burn-in. At this point I'm about 100 hours in, and things have improved -- the soundstage has widened a lot. Tonally I don't have as good a grasp of the changes because I haven't listened to the nano in a couple days, and I'm also trying to burn-in two new amps at the same time! I'm not worried about that though -- out-of-the-box the sound was fuller and more detailed than my nano rig.

Thanks for the rapid burn-in advice. When I first got the iMod, I was definitely going to try and speed it along. But perversely, I'm enjoying the process! It's improving noticeably and quickly enough that I can perceive the difference day-to-day (well, I tell myself that anyway.) If you have any advice for speeding up the amp burn-in process, I'm all ears though. I have a new RSA Hornet, and it seems like its burn-in is going to take a long long time.

Doug

duff138 · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 Feb 2007, 12:24 pm »

I've read the RSA Hornet needs close to 300 hours to completely burn in. You'll definitley need a headphone upgrade to appreciate the full potential of the RSA Hornet and Imod.

DougR · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Feb 2007, 02:15 pm »

Hi Duff - I'm afraid that you're right. So far, the combo of Grado SR60 with iMod and Hornet doesn't sound very good -- not quite unlistenable, but a very harsh high-end, and a fatiguing experience. I'll see how it develops though -- the Hornet only has 90 hours of burn-in. Substituting the Headroom Micro Amp with desktop module produces a very pleasing sound though

cfcjb · « **Reply #14 on:** 14 Feb 2007, 08:46 pm »

Doug,
given that your Hornet and your Imod are still in the process of burning in, if I were you I would wait until everything had broken in and settled down.
I would wait some more, acquaint myself with the fully burned in sound of my system then I would look to upgrade headphones.
Just my 2cents.

Regards,

J.

TheSloth · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 Feb 2007, 07:39 am »

Quote from: DougR on 14 Feb 2007, 02:15 pm

Hi Duff - I'm afraid that you're right. So far, the combo of Grado SR60 with iMod and Hornet doesn't sound very good -- not quite unlistenable, but a very harsh high-end, and a fatiguing experience. I'll see how it develops though -- the Hornet only has 90 hours of burn-in. Substituting the Headroom Micro Amp with desktop module produces a very pleasing sound though

It may be of note at this point that your HR amp has an input impedance of about 100K, which is nice and high for a solid state headphone amp. I don't know the figures for the Hornet, but I suspect it's more like 20K as is more common.

DougR · « **Reply #16 on:** 15 Feb 2007, 04:55 pm »

Hi J.,

Exactly my plan, but it's nice to see a recommendation in that direction. With the electronics changing by the hour, I don't think I could figure out anything by adding new headphones to the mix too. I assume from many comments I've read that once everything settles down I'll want to upgrade my SR60s, but we'll see -- hey, maybe once amp and iMod burn-in, I'll be satisfied

Cheers,
Doug

DougR · « **Reply #17 on:** 15 Feb 2007, 04:59 pm »

Interesting point about the input impedances Sloth, but can you connect the dots a little more for me? Were you trying to make a statement about their relative sound quality? Or maybe, taking Vinnie's comments into account, the HR amp might be less appropriate for burning-in my iMod than the Hornet.

I've enjoyed reading some of your HR experiences on Head-fi! Do you have any comments about burn-in of my Micro amp? I wrote to Headroom, and Jorge suggested that only 20-40 hours playtime is needed.

Doug

DougR · « **Reply #18 on:** 16 Feb 2007, 04:00 pm »

An iMod burn-in update, at about the 140-150 hour mark: in summary, I'm really happy!

So here's the setup now:
iMod --> Cardas 6" HPI cable --> RSA Hornet (~115 hours) --> Grado SR60 cans

For this comparison, I went back to the Nano and Sendstation line-out dock. Generally, I've been burning-in the iMod and the Hornet together, listening for a few hours at work every day, and playing them in a drawer overnight at reasonably high volume every night. About once a day I've been doing a detailed comparison of one or two songs, either comparing sources, or comparing amps (Hornet vs HR Micro/DM.) Today's audition was Lyle Lovett's "I've Been to Memphis," from "Joshua Judges Ruth," ripped with ALAC.

The Nano setup is nicely balanced; the Hornet complements it well, leading to a really nice listen. Attack is quick, the sound is full, and the bass is strong. Individual instruments and vocals aren't remarkable though. The sound is nicely balanced, with nice space and soundstage, though the presentation is veiled in comparison to the iMod now.

The iMod has modestly better vocals, and MUCH better separation on the instruments. It also has stronger bass, MUCH better bass quality, and fuller sound. This is particularly obvious on the bass guitar backing. Highs are brighter too. I judge the soundstaging to be equal between setups now. There's nothing at all veiled about the iMod-->Hornet sound.

There are three specific comparisons that highlight the iMod's performance vs the Nano. First, you can easily pick out the lead acoustic guitar, rhythm acoustic guitar, electric bass guitar, piano, and vocals concurrently. Second, listening to the rhythm guitar alone, you can nearly pick out the sound of each string on the iMod -- this is far superior to what the Nano reproduces. Third, the bass guitar has a very pleasing timbre when played by the iMod, but this is lost by the Nano, which just conveys a general baseline rhythm.

Still enjoying the process here. I don't think the burn-in is complete, but the iMod is already surpassing what I had before

Doug

cfcjb · « **Reply #19 on:** 16 Feb 2007, 09:17 pm »

Thanks for the detailed update Doug.