[eric the red]

I've always been curious what constitutes 'shilling' (not 'Schilling' as in Curt the pitcher unless he is posting in the Hornes forum and if he IS posting there it would be cool) on audio forums. I understand that the loose definition of shilling is someone with a vested interest in a product posting covertly and pushing their wares on the unsuspecting. However, when does the unbridled enthusiasm for a product by a user (a recent case here many of you may remember centered on the CLC) stop and shilling begin? When someone SUSPECTS that someone is shilling? I just bought a Rega Apollo and unbridled enthusiasm for this particular cdp is all over the web. How do I differentiate between the shillers and their shilling from the enthusiasts and their enthusiaizing? How does one know when someone is pushing a product or has financial interest in the product (or for that matter is pulling someone's leg)? If someone asks "What cdp is best under $1k?" and a person responds Rega Apollo not only because he likes the Apollo but also got a decent deal on one because he knows the dealer, is he a shill?

...seven shillers shilling, six Hornes a horning, fiiiive cheap ICs....

[mcgsxr]

For me, half of that determination is likely in the presentation.  If someone who owns a piece of gear, and likes it, presents it in that light, I am likely to think if OK.

If it verges on " the best in the universe regardless of system synergy, musical preference, or room size", then I suspect a shill is in the air...

I own some gear that I am positive about, in public.  Hopefully that is not misconstrued!

[lcrim]

I think that if you identify your connection then your enthusiasm can be seen in that light.  The reader/viewer can draw their own conclusions.  If you don't identify that connection then you are being dishonest.  I do know some who would say that remaining out of the discussion entirely is the only honest position.

[DSK]

This is a tough one. When you have listened to a lot of gear and found components that outperform the competition, you naturally want to let others know so that they can experience the same satisfaction. This is especially true when the components are less expensive than the competition. We are always after the most performance for the least bucks and this is often a long search. Sometimes we only find these components because of enthusiastic comments/reviews by forum members. However, if we post too often about a particular brand/component, we start to look like a shill .... even though we may be stating the truth when we make comments like a particular component outperformed several others at four times its price etc.

And sometimes, through our auditioning and buying process we come to know and even like the manufacturer. I have found this with one manufacturer and now have coffee with him every few months. Yes, I would like to see him do well. But, I would not sing the praises of his gear unless I truly believed what I was saying (ie. I would not embellish just because I like the manufacturer). However, anyone that knows I have coffee with the manufacturer will probably regard me as a shill. It's a "lose lose lose" situation ...for the manufacturer (financially), for the reader (who may miss out on some great gear), and for the poster (who looks like a shill). For this reason, I often don't respond to posts outside of the manufacturer's circle. Personally, I don't post favourable comments in the attempt to get people to "buy" gear, but rather to add it to their audition list and make their own decisions.
 

[macrojack]

It's shilling when other people do it. When I recommend something it is useful information and should be followed without question. Understand?

[eric the red]

It's shilling when other people do it. When I recommend something it is useful information and should be followed without question. Understand?

That took me a second

[Night_Train]

...seven shillers shilling, six Hornes a horning, fiiiive cheap ICs....

"a penny for your thoughts = a shill for your thoughts" hehehehe

[eric the red]

...seven shillers shilling, six Hornes a horning, fiiiive cheap ICs....

"a penny for your thoughts = a shill for your thoughts" hehehehe

"To shill or not to shill, that is the question"

[AKSA]

I believe we have to rely on our readership to draw their own conclusions, otherwise we risk being a 'nanny state', controlling things overly, and finishing with a bland, politically correct forum......

Ultimately, shilling gets tiresome, and a groundswell of sentiment rises in the mods, and the shiller is told to pipe down or leave.  That said, recently one of my customers was accused of shilling by an esteemed academic member on another forum, who then promptly posted abuse privately to me.....  so it's a difficult one.  These extreme reactions are more likely due the complainant than the 'accused';  it was an unusual scenario.

I do feel that this fringe behaviour is important to tolerate if we want to have a rich, healthy forum.  Too much control really inflames and embitters, and when making any purchase there is always and inevitably 'caveat emptor'.


Cheers,

Hugh

[bprice2]

...seven shillers shilling, six Hornes a horning, fiiiive cheap ICs....

"a penny for your thoughts = a shill for your thoughts" hehehehe

"To shill or not to shill, that is the question"

How much shill could a shillseller shill, if a shillseller could shill...ahh, forget about it.

[Night_Train]

...seven shillers shilling, six Hornes a horning, fiiiive cheap ICs....

"a penny for your thoughts = a shill for your thoughts" hehehehe

"To shill or not to shill, that is the question"

"what's one more shill more or less anyway?"

[macrojack]

I agree with AKSA about keeping it open. I've about given up on Audiogon because of their inconsistent and unaccountable censorship. The chair dudes here seem to be sensitive and they appear to exercise good judgment with accountability. This feels pretty democratic to me even though I've stepped in a couple of puddles since I arrived last summer.

[Mike Dzurko]

Shilling of course has a negative connotation, on the other hand advice is usually thought of as positive. I believe it starts with intent. If the intent is to honestly recommend a product or service that will be potentially beneficial to the other party, then if anything, it is a disservice NOT to speak up.

If, on the other hand, the intent is to mislead or to push an agenda purely for profit, etc. well that simply ain't cool.

Don't we all gain by hearing what other's like and dislike? Isn't that the point? Without honest people enthusiastically sharing, our buying (or at least auditioning) decisions will be wholly influenced by advertising, professional reviews and possibly the salespeople.

[JohninCR]

True shilling is typically obvious by their low post count, and they will often do so in ways that are quite sneaky.

The more interesting thing I noted in the "clock" thread was how obnoxious some of those who are typically on the "believer" side of the fence were, yet if someone makes similar toned statements about something like power cords, they get put in time out.

[macrojack]

Mike's right. And it is definitely shilling when it appears atopically in a discussion about something altogether different. Reminds me of the other day when I was listening to my __________ with six other guys who all could hear the same thing and my wife who hates this stuff even commented from the kitchen that something sounded DIFFERENT. She heard the DIFFFERENCE. You really are cheating yourselves if you don't try the _________ . It really makes a DIFFERENCE.

We see that word a lot in these discussions. Different by virtue of not being the same, I guess. Does it really mean anything else?

I guess it is shilling if you don't want to hear it and interesting if you do.

[Steve]

I think it is very difficult to tell at times. As JohnnyCR mentioned it can be quite subtle. Many times, it is so difficult to tell, so one tries to give the benefit of the doubt if possible. There are honest differences of opinion.

Sometimes, though, there is an effort to cleverly degrade a competitor's product rather than overly praising a product. It can be just a little comment that raises some doubt. Other times, there can be sematic issues, or again just an honest difference of opinion.

Sometimes it can be quite easy to figure. For instance if "X" sounds just like "Y", why does "Y" have PRAT and "X" doesn't? In that case, something smells.

Sometimes a subtle phychological "exclusionary tatic" is used when answering a question/post. Answer the question by mentioning a competitors' product(s) while leaving out any mention of product "X" (which the string and question was about). This kind of post gives the impression "X" really isn't in the same class as the competitors' product(s) that are mentioned. So why waste one's time. 

Another form is to change standard definitions (for decades) to gain advantage when promoting product or putting another product down.
A good example is "this amplifier has it's own volume control and you don't need a preamplifier". Of course, the active preamp stage is already built into the amplifier, right after the volume control. But the "preamp" stage is now called an amplifier stage. (See the library of Congress as well as Stereophile magazine for the references.) The same number of stages are used if the component were divided up.

I suppose there are other techniques, but sometimes it is hard to tell if shilling is going on, and there are just honest differences of opinion.

[Rick Craig]

True shilling is typically obvious by their low post count, and they will often do so in ways that are quite sneaky.

The more interesting thing I noted in the "clock" thread was how obnoxious some of those who are typically on the "believer" side of the fence were, yet if someone makes similar toned statements about something like power cords, they get put in time out.

It's not always a low post count. I know of shills who actually post quite often.

[JohninCR]

True shilling is typically obvious by their low post count, and they will often do so in ways that are quite sneaky.

The more interesting thing I noted in the "clock" thread was how obnoxious some of those who are typically on the "believer" side of the fence were, yet if someone makes similar toned statements about something like power cords, they get put in time out.

It's not always a low post count. I know of shills who actually post quite often.

True, but that would be atypical.  Plus, if a shill goes unidentified for a long period of time, shame on members who didn't catch on earlier.  The sneakiest way, other than degrading competitors as mentioned earlier, is coming in and asking a question about a product, usually with a link included.  That is almost impossible to distinguish between a valid question, but it achieves the intended purpose, to drive traffic to the product(s).

[Rick Craig]

True shilling is typically obvious by their low post count, and they will often do so in ways that are quite sneaky.

The more interesting thing I noted in the "clock" thread was how obnoxious some of those who are typically on the "believer" side of the fence were, yet if someone makes similar toned statements about something like power cords, they get put in time out.

It's not always a low post count. I know of shills who actually post quite often.

True, but that would be atypical.  Plus, if a shill goes unidentified for a long period of time, shame on members who didn't catch on earlier.  The sneakiest way, other than degrading competitors as mentioned earlier, is coming in and asking a question about a product, usually with a link included.  That is almost impossible to distinguish between a valid question, but it achieves the intended purpose, to drive traffic to the product(s).

The cases I've witnessed are where the shill is given an unusually large discount or commission by a manufacturer to hype a product. Manufacturers who do this like to find someone who is very visible, influential, and active on a forum. They want someone who people will listen to and take their advice.

[Marbles]

It's not always a low post count. I know of shills who actually post quite often.

I'm posting less and less all the time Rick