0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 19152 times.
Everything that matters with audio is well known and can be measured to orders of magnitude beyond what any human can hear. For example, all types of distortion can be measured down into the noise as low as -120 dB and even lower.
Most people are hard pressed to hear artifacts that are 40 dB below the music except in special situations.
Likewise for frequency response which can be measured to tiny fractions of a dB at frequencies from well below what anyone can hear into the radio frequency range. So what else is there?
This is my big objection to the snake oil merchants. They know their products do nothing, so they instead claim the improvement is real but "science" doesn't know how to measure it. Every real audio engineer knows this is silly.
If frequency response and distortion are all there is to it, the brighter among us need to come up with a forecast model to predict what certain gear combinations and room factors will sound like.
Just to add to my previous post, using that argument as an example of not being able to measure what you hear is rather incongruous. The matter of determining what instrument is playing or who is singing isn't one so much of hearing as of interpretation of what is heard, which is a higher order function. So I don't see that argument nullifying the argument that we can measure anything we can hear.se
Well since Phil and John are not going to respond to any of the questions that either myself or steve are putting forth I will put up the following on soundstage and image.One can enhance the "center stage" by simply adding more monaural info. This can easily be done by taking a 50k variable resistor and connecting across the right and left outputs of the pre amp. The lower in resistance you go the more monaural info you get and a "wider center stage" Want to shift the "soundstage right or left? Simply adjust the gain of what ever channel you want to shift to and watch the soundsatge move in that direction. Or start moving the speaker(s) so that you have about a 1 to 2 db level difference at the listening position and that will give a very similar effect. As far as the pre amp example that Danny gave, that's out of phase crosstalk causing the effect. No magic here guys, none at all. d.b.
No measurement device can "interpret" a sound like the ear/brain can.No ear/brain can hear and discern some signals as well as a mike and recorder.What's to argue?
Ultimately, this discussion results in a "push" like all the others. I've heard $200,000 systems that sure had no magic at all that I'm sure measured splendidly. My Yamamoto SET amplifier measures like crap but sounds like gold.I think magic has a lot to do with it.
Quote from: Dan Banquer on 7 Feb 2007, 10:31 pmWell since Phil and John are not going to respond to any of the questions that either myself or steve are putting forth I will put up the following on soundstage and image.One can enhance the "center stage" by simply adding more monaural info. This can easily be done by taking a 50k variable resistor and connecting across the right and left outputs of the pre amp. The lower in resistance you go the more monaural info you get and a "wider center stage" Want to shift the "soundstage right or left? Simply adjust the gain of what ever channel you want to shift to and watch the soundsatge move in that direction. Or start moving the speaker(s) so that you have about a 1 to 2 db level difference at the listening position and that will give a very similar effect. As far as the pre amp example that Danny gave, that's out of phase crosstalk causing the effect. No magic here guys, none at all. d.b. Hi Dan,I am "not" arguing any point, since there is none to be argued.I won't argue that you can measure things that can't be heard, nor will I argue that you can hear things that can't be measured.There is no argument, since it seems the two poles are arguing different things.No measurement device can "interpret" a sound like the ear/brain can.No ear/brain can hear and discern some signals as well as a mike and recorder.What's to argue?
My point is simply that saying measurements can distill all aspects of our audio experience is preposterous.
The human ear is much more sensitive than you think. There is a lot that is NOT so well known or accepted and plenty of things that are easily discernable by the ear that are not so easy to measure.
How about spacial cues? Why does one pre-amp allow for a deep sound stage and then another one jumbles the sound stage up in a 2 dimensional way. The ear detects it quickly and easily.
My Clio measuring system can very accurately measure the amplitude of a note, but it won't tell me what played it.
Good or bad is a subjective evaluation too. Two things might measure the same by common means yet sound very different. It could be that the root of the difference lies elsewhere and you are measuring the wrong thing.
Case in point just hand me a bunch of Radio Shack drivers and I can put enough components on them to make them measure great in every way, but that does not mean that they'll sound good.
Another case in point. A manufacturer hands me two capacitors to evaluate and compare wanting my feedback. This really happened. They are the exact same value and measure the same in every way, but the dielectric material is different. Guess what, they sound different too.
None of this is to disparage the noble and necessary science of audio engineering, merely to state that my experience tells me that isn't the end of the story.
hmmm, Steve Eddy, ... I really don't know what measuring can and can't do but if you are saying that measurement can't tell us something as basic as what instrument is playing [can it or can't it?], then our ears are capable of something a measuring instrument isn't are they not?
Quote from: miklorsmith on 7 Feb 2007, 11:37 pmNone of this is to disparage the noble and necessary science of audio engineering, merely to state that my experience tells me that isn't the end of the story.You should never say things like that. It is part of the High End culture to disparage all engineering disciplines no matter what. It's part of the Love/Hate relationship passive aggressive thingy.If this is not rectified immediately I will have no choice but to report you the "higher" authorities, and we will revoke your poetic license. If you are a repeat offender your SET will be transformed to a state amp that uses negative feedback. This is your last warning. d.b.
What about Danny's example of the two capacitors? Same electrical properties, different sounds.
And again, if we can change some element of our playback chain and hear a difference, what would it matter if we could explain it through a measurement.