[DRL]

If you had been around and followed that drama for oh, say, 5 years, you would know what I am talking about deja vu all over again....

"In development products" are what gets MLS in trouble time and again. My comments were addressing those unhappy with the current problems-that they are nothing new. They were not addressed to the happy customers such as yourself, so if there is a troll in the room, it is you....

Glad to hear the speaker correction works great. When was it released and how many speakers are supported? Do you have to rent the kit to measure or send your speakers in? How many corrections are they offering now and what do they cost? The whole arrangement changed so many times I lost count...

Oh, and are you still waiting on the promised room correction? I am sure it will be released any day now...

Again, none of this is new. It is the de facto MLS business model. And when things get too hot, MLS will release a public statement that will follow this script:

1. Accept all the blame and apologize profusely
2. Mention all the supplier, production, personnel, personal, and health issues they are dealing with
3. Mention all the satisfied customers and how committed they are to making things right
4. Ask for patience
5. Promise to straighten things out.

Saw this time and again with the PT over the 5-6 years I followed it.

Again, MLS is not a bad guy, maybe just a bad business operator.....

Sincerely hope this works out for everyone....

I (sort of) apologize for the troll comment.   

Essentially I think your original post and even the one above are a little over the top based on that one product line (which evidently and not suprisingly has quite a long and involved story of everything that went wrong).  I was trying to point out that there are a whole lot of people out there listening to products purchased from Mark and his companies that are very happy with the equipment and the overall experience. 

[DogWizard]

I (sort of) apologize for the troll comment.   

Essentially I think your original post and even the one above are a little over the top based on that one product line (which evidently and not suprisingly has quite a long and involved story of everything that went wrong).  I was trying to point out that there are a whole lot of people out there listening to products purchased from Mark and his companies that are very happy with the equipment and the overall experience. 

Thank you - even though I don't think that the troll comment was addressed at me specifically, it was an unfortunate generality thrown out there. If you look at all the posts here since the "great closing", you will see that the VAST majority are from long-time AV123 members and supporters. I just haven't seen anything (or very little) in the way of personal attacks, abusive or derogatory statements, or malicious posts. Just people trying to get a handle on what happened and why...

As long as it's just discussion and not an attack, I don't see why we can't all play nice. After all, if everyone agreed completely, what need would we have for forums for discussion? If it does start to get ugly, then one message to JohnR will solve the problem. I've actually been thinking that it may not be a bad idea to start a dedicated "Exile's" thread somewhere so that we can continue our discussions (AV123 and other) somewhere other than the AV123 Circle - thoughts?

[emac]

Thank you - even though I don't think that the troll comment was addressed at me specifically, it was an unfortunate generality thrown out there. If you look at all the posts here since the "great closing", you will see that the VAST majority are from long-time AV123 members and supporters. I just haven't seen anything (or very little) in the way of personal attacks, abusive or derogatory statements, or malicious posts. Just people trying to get a handle on what happened and why...

As long as it's just discussion and not an attack, I don't see why we can't all play nice. After all, if everyone agreed completely, what need would we have for forums for discussion? If it does start to get ugly, then one message to JohnR will solve the problem. I've actually been thinking that it may not be a bad idea to start a dedicated "Exile's" thread somewhere so that we can continue our discussions (AV123 and other) somewhere other than the AV123 Circle - thoughts?

Good idea.  We can't get it closed down if we locate it somewhere else.  I vote for Industry Talk, since that seems the most appropriate.  I'd start the thread, but I want to get feedback from more frequent posters on AC that this would be the most appropriate place. 

[droht]

Do it!  Call the thread "Elba".

[DogWizard]

I'd also like to find a way to either move or copy the posts from the last few days so that we don't lose what has already been discussed (AV123 and other). Not knowing the most appropriate place was my stumbling block as well...

[zybar]

Thank you - even though I don't think that the troll comment was addressed at me specifically, it was an unfortunate generality thrown out there. If you look at all the posts here since the "great closing", you will see that the VAST majority are from long-time AV123 members and supporters. I just haven't seen anything (or very little) in the way of personal attacks, abusive or derogatory statements, or malicious posts. Just people trying to get a handle on what happened and why...

As long as it's just discussion and not an attack, I don't see why we can't all play nice. After all, if everyone agreed completely, what need would we have for forums for discussion? If it does start to get ugly, then one message to JohnR will solve the problem. I've actually been thinking that it may not be a bad idea to start a dedicated "Exile's" thread somewhere so that we can continue our discussions (AV123 and other) somewhere other than the AV123 Circle - thoughts?

Good idea.  We can't get it closed down if we locate it somewhere else.  I vote for Industry Talk, since that seems the most appropriate.  I'd start the thread, but I want to get feedback from more frequent posters on AC that this would be the most appropriate place. 

Guys,

Audio Central would be the proper place to start the thread, not Industry Talk.  That section is for the actual vendors, not to talk about a specific one.

George

[TomS]

Thank you - even though I don't think that the troll comment was addressed at me specifically, it was an unfortunate generality thrown out there. If you look at all the posts here since the "great closing", you will see that the VAST majority are from long-time AV123 members and supporters. I just haven't seen anything (or very little) in the way of personal attacks, abusive or derogatory statements, or malicious posts. Just people trying to get a handle on what happened and why...

As long as it's just discussion and not an attack, I don't see why we can't all play nice. After all, if everyone agreed completely, what need would we have for forums for discussion? If it does start to get ugly, then one message to JohnR will solve the problem. I've actually been thinking that it may not be a bad idea to start a dedicated "Exile's" thread somewhere so that we can continue our discussions (AV123 and other) somewhere other than the AV123 Circle - thoughts?

Good idea.  We can't get it closed down if we locate it somewhere else.  I vote for Industry Talk, since that seems the most appropriate.  I'd start the thread, but I want to get feedback from more frequent posters on AC that this would be the most appropriate place. 

Guys,

Audio Central would be the proper place to start the thread, not Industry Talk.  That section is for the actual vendors, not to talk about a specific one.

George

Not sure who the moderator is for the "Manufacturer's Mall" but that person should be able to split this from the Forum Closed point forward...

[cab]

"I (sort of) apologize for the troll comment."

Then I guess I (sort of) accept your apology....

"Essentially I think your original post and even the one above are a little over the top based on that one product line (which evidently and not suprisingly has quite a long and involved story of everything that went wrong).  I was trying to point out that there are a whole lot of people out there listening to products purchased from Mark and his companies that are very happy with the equipment and the overall experience."

Perhaps, but there are a lot of people with a lot of residual angst over the PT thing and it is quite frustrating to see more of the (nearly?) same thing all over again....

No doubt there are happy customers. Happy for them. That doesn't cancel out those less fortunate nor make bad business practices ok.

[Jed M]

I see nothing troll like about anyone's behavior yet.  I think too often we explain opinions we don't agree with as trollish.  Everyone has had valid points and I have been feeling lately over at AV123 only the extremely pro MLS posters were welcome even though we were told otherwise. Its nice to see an honest discussion between long time forum members without fear of being cast off as malcontents, jealous, part of the problem, or trolls.  

I think there are a lot of things (in fact, most everything) can be learned from history and the PT experience is a valid example.  How long have people been waiting for fixed UFW-12's?  Coming up on 3 years now.  How long do we generally wait for missed updates that were promised?  I think all of these things should be examined and not swept under the rug as just Mark talking about pre-production products.  Great discussion so far.  Lets keep this thing on track gentlemen.

[django11]

Do it!  Call the thread "Elba".

Hey Dean, you read too much!

[django11]

I see nothing troll like about anyone's behavior yet.  I think too often we explain opinions we don't agree with as trollish.  Everyone has had valid points and I have been feeling lately over at AV123 only the extremely pro MLS posters were welcome even though we were told otherwise. Its nice to see an honest discussion between long time forum members without fear of being cast off as malcontents, jealous, part of the problem, or trolls.  

I think there are a lot of things (in fact, most everything) can be learned from history and the PT experience is a valid example.  How long have people been waiting for fixed UFW-12's?  Coming up on 3 years now.  How long do we generally wait for missed updates that were promised?  I think all of these things should be examined and not swept under the rug as just Mark talking about pre-production products.  Great discussion so far.  Lets keep this thing on track gentlemen.

+1

I enjoyed your posts (along with a few others) over at tweak city...

[DogWizard]

Do it!  Call the thread "Elba".

Hey Dean, you read too much!

I think the last thing we need around here are a bunch of guys with Napolean complexes...  

[Digital Ra]

Well it would guarantee at least 110,000 potential customers...the wait could be unbearable.

[rmassey]

there are a whole lot of people out there listening to products purchased from Mark and his companies that are very happy with the equipment and the overall experience.

very true, but.... it has become a situation where you now have to very carefully dodge the landmines.  with production delays, vendor issues, shipping delays, currency fluctuations, CNY... you name it... it's become increasingly difficult to just buy an on time-trouble free AV123 product.

surprisingly the PT/SOCS combo has been one of the easiest products for me.  Granted I purchased it used in Dec. 2004 (five years after the prototype) and then had SOCS for sig 750s installed in Jan 2005 and it just works.  so as a product purchase/experience I'm happy....  but perhaps i just got lucky.  I know EVERY other AV123 speaker/sub I have was delayed 2-10 months with a string of 'excuses'.

... and YES (full disclosure) I have received free GTG raffle speaker prizes from AV123 and enjoy them daily.  I also paid full retail prices in 2002 for a 5.0 system (750/550/200)  + risers + subs before any Santa sales existed.

mls great guy, bad businessman - agreed
AV123 speakers - great value & SQ - agreed
Electronics - big risk IMO - except PT, won't go there

all the rest is FUBAR IMO

[620gold]

And for DRL, it's easy to fling the name troll around here. Daryl, we have about the same amount of posts here, so we start off equal. Please stop with the Troll comments. It gets old.

Your last post seemed reasonable and I'm reasonable too. You know why I don't have any respect for AV123. And in my case, I've been right about that. You're obviously much more patient and enjoy their products, but you have to admit they've gone south of the border lately.

[Digital Ra]

but you have to admit they've gone south of the border lately.

Without question!

[django11]

And for DRL, it's easy to fling the name troll around here. Daryl, we have about the same amount of posts here, so we start off equal. Please stop with the Troll comments. It gets old.

Your last post seemed reasonable and I'm reasonable too. You know why I don't have any respect for AV123. And in my case, I've been right about that. You're obviously much more patient and enjoy their products, but you have to admit they've gone south of the border lately.

You know, I think that by and large the people in this thread mostly wish well on av123 and MLS and have a certain respect for the man and enthusiasm for the products.  We are collectively curious about the problems over at av123.  I think you might not be in the right company to say things like "I don't have any respect for AV123".  You might have valid reasons to say this but why pick a fight with us?  We are not av123.  Personally my experience has been mostly positive.   

[620gold]

I was making that point to DRL, not the rest of the posters here. I thought that obvious. You've had some pointed criticisms of AV123 yourself Django and I wouldn't criticize you for saying it either.

[rmassey]

"I don't have any respect for AV123".

Not the OP to this, but for me I'd say I just don't have anymore 'confidence' in AV123.

I made some personal buying rules a few years ago
- no Pre-pay
- No pre-orders of development products.  
- No ordering unless a product is in stock and ready to ship
- No Cali products....

this is really the only way to avoid drama/excuse/disappointments IMO.

The exception to this was a warranty exchange for a dead UFW for an MFW-15 that I waited 10 months for.

[Jed M]

"I don't have any respect for AV123".

Not the OP to this, but for me I'd say I just don't have anymore 'confidence' in AV123.

I made some personal buying rules a few years ago
- no Pre-pay
- No pre-orders of development products.  
- No ordering unless a product is in stock and ready to ship
- No Cali products....

this is really the only way to avoid drama/excuse/disappointments IMO.

The exception to this was a warranty exchange for a dead UFW for an MFW-15 that I waited 10 months for.

Good points Rich.  I wish I was offered the trade in deal.  Waiting 10 months is better than 3 years.  Maybe it was a public offer and I just missed it.  I would have jumped at that in a heart beat.    Oh well, I am sure the HR will be tremendous, I just hope I don't need to wait much longer...