[Brian Cheney]

Today I had opportunity to compare the RM 40 with the V60 in my 13x31' LEDE listening room using the usual cast of associated gear: Krell MD10/Wadia 27ix transport/DAC, Ampzilla "Ambrosia" pre, and pair of Son of Ampzilla used as monoblocks running each system fullrange.  The V60 was augmented with a single VSS sub with its internal 1000W amp, crossover set at 71Hz and parametric EQ set at 72Hz (corresponding to the approx. 8ft high ceiling of my room) with a bandwidth of .25 and about 6dB of cut.

The V 60 is an open-back, damped  reverse horn which I set for about 50% dipole operation, i.e. 10" deep foam damper flush with the back edge of the wings.  The RM 40's were placed directly in front of the V60 during the A/B comparisons.  Both systems had cap upgrades (TRT's) and the OXO and stock wiring.  I used the audience AU24 speaker wire and balanced interconnects.

I won't keep anyone in suspense.  The RM 40 sounded excellent, but warmer than the V60's and not as detailed.  Soundstage was noticeably less 3 dimensional, and dynamics not quite as impressive as with the 60's.  Tonality was similar but one difference struck me repeatedly: the extraordinarily natural, true-to-life fidelity of the V60 over the box speaker.  The "live" sound of the V60 left its imprint on all the program material we played (customer present was trying to decide between the two systems): Diana Krall, Wes Montgomery, Chet Baker, Peter Townsend, several modern progressive rock groups, and other material.  The jazz albums had a "club" feeling to them, as if one were sitting at a table close to the music, lacking only a cocktail.  Instruments were very clearly differentiated on the V60, less so on the RM 40's.  A soft tambourine behind Wes Montgomery was clearly audible on the V60's, not on the RM 40.  And so on.

So, any RM 40 owner wanting to upgrade will be rewarded by moving to the V60 in every aspect of sound reproduction.  The transparency and lack of coloration in the 60's is truly astonishing and gratifying in ways I have not heard before from other systems regardless of price.   

[ctviggen]

Will the V60s come in the same (or a similar) range of finishes as compared to the RM40? 

[ctviggen]

By the way, I've been intrigued by open baffle speakers for a while now.  I think the V60s provide a neat solution -- a mixture of RM40-like huge "wall" of midrange/highs, great looks and bass control where I think it's better placed, which in a sub you can put in locations to reduce room anomalies.  The only detriments are (obviously) cost and also independent bass module.  I think it's simply harder, in terms of work the user has to do, to get an independent bass module to blend in seamless with the main speakers.  On the other hand, you get to place the module where it interacts less with the room.  The ability to notch out a peak is also a great idea.

[John Casler]

Will the V60s come in the same (or a similar) range of finishes as compared to the RM40? 

We will be stocking Rosewood, Piano Black and Ebony, but can have custom finishes withing 90 days or so.

They can also be ordered with "ANY" automotive finish.

[John Casler]

By the way, I've been intrigued by open baffle speakers for a while now.  I think the V60s provide a neat solution -- a mixture of RM40-like huge "wall" of midrange/highs, great looks and bass control where I think it's better placed, which in a sub you can put in locations to reduce room anomalies.  The only detriments are (obviously) cost and also independent bass module.  I think it's simply harder, in terms of work the user has to do, to get an independent bass module to blend in seamless with the main speakers.  On the other hand, you get to place the module where it interacts less with the room.  The ability to notch out a peak is also a great idea.

Blending the Sub(s) is not all that difficult compared to other "room problems".

As you note, the subs come with level, phase and single band equalizer controls.  Most important is not having too much "overlap" at the 70Hz rolloff of the bass base.

The integration at THE Show was seemless, and that was in a very bad room.

Putty comes "pre-pinched" to the onboard amp, so little adjustment should be needed there.

[inRMsway]

Having been a long time user and extensive modifier of some Infinity dipole designs, I recently picked up some used RM 40's and have been enjoying the incredible detail and precision they deliver. The way the Mid Woofer plays along to supply body and warmth to the sound solves the main drawback I always had with the classic Infinitys. This new RM 60 dipole will no doubt do the magic things I've always enjoyed from dipoles, but the fact that Brian mentions that the RM 40 sounds 'warmer' and the RM 60 sounds more 'detailed' brings up the old trade off of sheer transparent detail yet a 'cool' sound which may 'wow', but might seem thin sounding in the long term? Often a little dip in upper bass/lower midrange removes a little masking effect which makes detail 'pop', but will it satisfy in the long haul? Just food for thought and having not yet heard the RM 60, I hope it is the 'end all be all'  and my fears are groundless. The RM 40 was the first speaker that has satisfied me in a monopole, so to have that kind of sound in a dipole would be glorious!

[Housteau]

Brian,

When you did your comparison you only used a single VSS sub to augment the V60s.  Did you do that to level the playing field?  That is, would the normal complement of two have been too much of an unfair advantage against the RM-40, or is that all your room required?  The comparison mostly spoke of the differences in clarity.  I am also interested in how the VSS couples to your room as a single and stereo pair,  compared to other designs that have come before it, including the RM-40.

Your room dimensions and mine are quite different.  You fire into the long dimension and I the short.  You have 8 foot ceilings and I have a 12 foot cathedral peak.  Yet, our rooms have the same identical volume down to 1 cubic foot.  So, I was thinking that what works well in your room may somewhat equate itself to mine, as I try to figure out which way I should go.

Do you feel that twin stereo VSS subs in your size room is more that adequate?  Although the VLA has not been built yet as it will be shipped, you have had a lot of experience with the STIIIs.  Do you feel that VLAs would best be suited for a room a bit larger, or would it be worthwhile to have them in this size of room?  Would a single, or stereo pair be overkill?

Dave

[Brian Cheney]

Based on my experience with the STIIISRE in my soundroom, there is no doubt in my mind that a pair of the VLA woofer towers provide the best possible bass loading for a room that size.  There is a large difference between a pair of very good subs like the VSS and a pair of VLA, mostly in how the room is energized.  The effect is akin to the spread of a symphony orchestra across a stage, even if most bass is coming from a single area.

The customer for the RM40/V60 was trying to keep costs down, thus the single woofer.  As our CES experience showed, stereo bass is much more realistic even in a small room, more so in a large one.

[Housteau]

Thank you Brian.  That is what I needed to Know.  The info helps and hurts $ me all at the same time .

[Brian Cheney]

Perhaps we should charge $80k like some folks--now that's PAIN!

[Housteau]

You are so right.  It definitely eases the burdon to see others suffering more and receiving less .

[PLMONROE]

Based on my experience with the STIIISRE in my soundroom, there is no doubt in my mind that a pair of the VLA woofer towers provide the best possible bass loading for a room that size.  There is a large difference between a pair of very good subs like the VSS and a pair of VLA, mostly in how the room is energized.  The effect is akin to the spread of a symphony orchestra across a stage, even if most bass is coming from a single area.

Obviously true. However if one is forced to compromise and choose between one VLA or two VSS subs which is the better choice?

[Brian Cheney]

In this case I would go with two VSS in order to maintain stereo bass.  You can always trade up later to the woofer towers if desired.

[lifewithmusic]

Brian:

And do we understand that neither system had the CD patent pending wave guide?

And just while I'm at it, will there be an open baffle, V60 type, version of the 626R?

(Wouldn't that be fun for surround speakers with V60 as the L&R in a home theater system.)

thanks.

Preston

[John Casler]

Based on my experience with the STIIISRE in my soundroom, there is no doubt in my mind that a pair of the VLA woofer towers provide the best possible bass loading for a room that size.  There is a large difference between a pair of very good subs like the VSS and a pair of VLA, mostly in how the room is energized.  The effect is akin to the spread of a symphony orchestra across a stage, even if most bass is coming from a single area.

Obviously true. However if one is forced to compromise and choose between one VLA or two VSS subs which is the better choice?

It is always a "trade off".

As B, suggests, there is certainly the consideration of Stereo, while some might consider "output" to be more significant.

To be sure all options are very good, but the elements of placement, and room size also enter the equation.

After hearing the VSS with the RM v60's, I can vouch for the fact that they integrate exceptionally well, and provide powerful, rich, dynamic and deep bass, in stereo.

[Brian Cheney]

Last week's demo was with the waveguides on.

Yesterday I repeated it for a different customer and took one waveguide off the RM40 to match the setup we had at CES (one CDWG on, one off).  This gave a nice combination of both treble sparkle and dispersion.  I encourage owners to try this configuration and report their impressions here.

[Jeff M]

I currently have Infinity RS1B's on my main system and I am wondering how the V60's(or even the V40's) would or do compare to them? I realize that the 60's are not out to the public yet, but a few of you have heard them and probably have heard the RS1B at one time or another. My living room is approx  13' x 21' x 8' and is not a dedicated room, with a few opening's to the kitchen and hallway. Don't get me wrong, I love my setup, but always looking for more . Current amps are Kenwood L-09M's(300 watt monoblocks) for the panels and a big EV(600wpc) for the bass columns. I plan on changing the EV. I use an AR SP-8 MkII(revision 7) preamp, which is a great preamp IMHO. Anyways, am I crazy to want to "upgrade" or would I be in for a nice change? Not a big jazz listener, mostly classic rock and anything else that is recorded well. I have learned to appreciate other types of music(sometimes in small doses) that are sonically nice .

[Housteau]

Hello Jeff.  I see the V60 speaker system as an excellent upgrade from the Infinity RS1b, and one that I have been wishing would be created for quite some time.  The Infinity is a fine system.  I know because I have owned mine for over 17 years, and even built a dedicated listening room around them.  Just when I thought they would not get any better, I would make a small change here or there and they did.  As I wrote to someone interested in buying mine:  They do require a commitment in space and time.  You will get the joy out of owning one of the best ever, but it will require some time vested.  The RS1b is a learning process that you need to flow with and grow into.

About 20 years ago when writing about the RS1b, the audio reviewer Anthony Cordesman wrote something to to the fact that if someone could design a speaker with the seamless nature of the Martin Logan, with Infinity ribbon technology (the best at the time), and the bass quality of VMPS, then the world would really have something.  I agreed with that since I had owned the ML CLS (and still do), the RS1bs, and VMPS Original Subwoofer for my Acoustats.  So, I felt I knew where he was coming from.

Anyway, that is how I see the potential of a full V60 / VLA system, even though I have not heard it.  Actually nobody has because the VLAs have yet to arrive and be built up.  I am taking a bit of this on faith, but I do believe in this system from everything that I have read so far.  So much so that my RS1bs were put up for sale to allow my spot in line for this new dream system.  I have been a member of this forum for a while now, just watching and enjoying reading about all the new developments.  Somehow I knew that if I stuck it out something good would come of it, but I never thought it would be this good .

[warnerwh]

I believe both of you will appreciate the sound of the VMPS speakers. The planars in these are superior to the old Infinity drivers. You'll know when you hear them. Speed due to the neo magnets I'm sure makes part of the difference. No doubt the design is better too. They're very robust drivers taking lots of power with ease. I only have RM 40's and use a 600wpc amp on the woofers and a 500wpc amp on the mid/treble. Those ratings are into 4 ohms.

Once I cranked an ESL 300(600wpc@4ohms) into a pair of 626Rs. They started to sound strained but continued to work fine. What really amazed me had been how loud they play with just one planar which is handling a huge portion of the frequency spectrum.

Btw I love the Infinities I've heard. They're better than alot of newer speakers I've heard. Certainly the design is similar to the VMPS line.

The RM 60 having 6 planars and the new beast of a tweeter has to sound amazingly good, period. Add one or two VLA's and anything made has some serious competition. The only step up would have to be a live band.

[MikeyMouse]

If my current budget is limited to either 2 VSS's or one VLA, which way would be better?  I don't have a huge room ~(20x20x7).  My initial thought is that in short term, 2 VSS's are probably better. In long term getting one VLA probably makes more sense as I can get another VLA as my budget allows in the future.  Your comments are much appreciated.

-Mike