[Yar762]

Hello folks.  I have been reading these VMPS posts for a long time and finally decided to drop in a note since I am now on the verge of purchasing a pair of RM40s to hopefully solve a dilemma that I have.

As background, I have been moving equipment into and out of my dedicated 2-channel system for many, many years.  I am finally at a point (hopefully) of satisfaction with my hardware.  For the time being, I have settled on a Classe digital front end, Audio Research phono pre, VPI table, Sonic Frontiers Preamp, and a Pass Labs X350 power amp.  This isn't the basis of the post, just wanted everyone to know what is driving my dilemma (dilemma = speakers).

I currently own 2-pairs of speakers.  An original pair of Legacy Focus and a pair of Infinity IRS Deltas.  Each have very strong virtues - the Legacy's can rock and maintain composure at very high SPLs with good deep bass extension, but don't provide the magic on piano and acoustic guitar.  Sidebar thought - I can state that I have owned these for 8+ years and still question the sub-20 Hz claims after many houses and many more listening rooms...   The Infinity Deltas have the magic on acoustic guitar and piano and can provide an expansive, beautiful soundstage but cannot deliver the dynamic impact that I desire and are too soft in the nether bass region - not to mention that they will literally bring my X350 to its knees if pushed hard!  Nothing quite like driving a complex load that dips well below 2 ohms! 

I can't count how many times I have switched these 2 sets of speakers around to satisfy my particular mood!  My wife thinks I am insane and swears that I am going to crush one of our children one of these days!  I have always hoped to find a speaker that would combine the virtues of both of these designs while maintaining a certain level of affordability.  Affordability really means that I stay clear of my significant other's radar by maintaining my hobby as close to "self funding" as possible.  Sell things to buys things with minimal new cash input....

Everything that I have read suggests that the RM40's should do the trick.  I am looking for input related to my thought process (Focus + Delta = RM40) and also wanted to know about the design changes that have been implemented over the years.  I have a chance to buy a low hour pair built in 2003 with all of upgrades that were available at the time.  I am wondering if there have been significant changes in the last 3 years and whether it would be better to opt for the current offering instead?

Thanks!

[Housteau]

I do not have a pair of RM-40s, but I recognize your logic as I am also an Infinity owner of many years.  I see VMPS as my choice for when I decide to move on.   

[John Casler]

Hi Yar,

Welcome to the VMPS circle.

I think you have hit on the speaker line that can give you most everything you have asked for.

You didn't list the size of your room, and how close you sit (nearfield/farfield) but another option is the RM30C with a LARGER sub or two, which might be in the same price range and play even lower.  

As long as you don't sit 20 feet away, and have a huge room.

Regarding an RM40 from 2003.  I would suppose it would be a "smokin" deal and is certainly a good speaker built shortly after winning the "Best of CES" back then.

But, to answer your question, it is not the 2007 RM40.  Here are some of the changes and upgrades:

FST tweeter over the Spiral

Vitrified Passive Radiators - Standard

Wool behind the Neopanels - Standard

Crossovers raised from 166Hz to 280hz to provide better dynamic impact to drum srikes and such - Standard

Availability of MLS cabinets with more inert MDF and bracing

Midwoofer Upgrade - Standard

SR-71 (available) Black Hole 5 interior cabinet damping

Constant Directivity Wave Guide - Standard

PBS Powered Bass System (available) 1000w to the bass drivers.

OXO (Outboard CrossOver) (Available)

SuperMax (Silver wiring all the way through) (Available)

So the Stock RM40, while not a different speaker, has had some very nice improvements (and I may have forgotten a couple)

Please don't let that stop you from picking up a vintage RM40 and getting a great bargain, but also be informed of what improvements have been added.

[jonbee]

My 2 cents- the RM 40s are not known for low bass capability, so you may need a sub w/ them to get true full range. Also, I concur w/ John C. in his opinion that the last years' changes in the RM line are major- bordering on revolutionary. Depending on space and budget, I also concur that the RM30C plus sub(s) will give a more full range solution, and will still handle a major amount of power without stress. Better WAF, too, if that has any value. And of course, YMMV.

[ctviggen]

I think the RM40s have good low bass capability.  In fact, once when using Avia test tones to set my sub(s), I forgot to turn on the 80Hz crossover to the RM40s.  The bass drivers in the RM40s were outputting over 85dB at my seat, without the subs (once I realized why nothing I did in my preamp to adjust sub output made any difference).  I think the proximity to the ground means that it's not as easy to hear what's coming out of the bass, but I think it's there. 

[Zheeeem]

Hmmmmmmmmm...  I think you want the FST and CDWGs.  And the blackhole 5.  And maybe a caps upgrade.  And...

If I were to get a great deal on a pair of RM40s I would be, in a word, totally neurotic.  Two words, actually.

The stock RM40 is a great speaker.  But as John has noted, Big B has made some significant improvements in the last few years - across the line.  I have a small room (11x14), so RM40s would have been impossible.  I opted for RM30Ms.  If I would have had more room, I probably would have gone with the RM30Cs and a sub or two.  If I would have had still more room I would have considered the RM40s.

If I had it to do all over again, I'd do the same thing.

One of the things that really sold me on the RM30s was the CDWG.  I had been considering designs like the AP Virgo, since the sidefiring bass would help solve my need for bass while maintaining a small footprint.  I was previously apprehensive about VMPS (and ribbons in general) because of beaming and the smallness of the sweetspot.  Or, to put it another way, I wanted a speaker that more than one person could listen to at a time.  When the CDWG was introduced, the issue was solved and Big B talked me out of my money in short order.

[Yar762]

Thanks for all of the responses and great info.  The gears are turning in my head now! 

My room is 15' wide by 20' long with 9' ceilings.  My system is set up on one of the short walls - I sit at the opposite end.  No room treatments, just carpet and leather couches.

On the subject of bass - perhaps I am confusing "kick in the gut" visceral bass with foundation shaking subterranean bass.  My objective for my 2-channel system is of the "kick in the gut" variety.  I am a drummer and I expect that most of the sound that a kit produces is likely above 30 Hz.  For the really deep bass, I head to the home theater room in the basement.  There lurks an SVS PB12-Ultra Plus2 that can empty the contents of a stomach if called upon to do so.  Great for movies. 

I really don't want to use sub(s) in my 2-channel room due to the WAF.  Nuf said.

Based on input related to the updates since 2003, I may be leaning towards a newer RM40 model.  Being an engineer, I expect that Big B doesn't take model updates lightly.  I am sure that they were significant to merit integration into a CES "Best of Show" winning design!  Plus those new finishes are friggin gorgeous!

I really hate that I can't drive somewhere close to audition these.  But then again, nothing ever sounds the same once you get them into your own listening room.  I might just take a chance...

By the way - I am looking for some feedback on a PM I received.  Someone described the neo panel sound as "bleached out and lacking in dynamic impact".  Say it ain't so!

[Zheeeem]

By the way - I am looking for some feedback on a PM I received.  Someone described the neo panel sound as "bleached out and lacking in dynamic impact".  Say it ain't so!

It ain't so!

Actually, it ain't even close.  My RM30s are about the most dynamic speakers I've ever heard, and the heart of 'em is, of course, the neo panels.  (If you want a good review of the RM40, read Marty's coverage in Bound for Sound.)  The neos are fast, clear and musical.  All I can figure is that the guy heard them improperly set up, or else he's got an agenda of some sort.

Given your room size, and wife approval issues, I think the RM40 is the VMPS for you.  The RM30M is a great speaker, but the bass only goes to about 30 Hz.  The RM40 takes you to the lower 20s, and 2-10" drivers and 4 neos a side won't hurt.

The piano rosewood is a nice finish.

[jonbee]

The sound of the panels is certainly not "bleached" but is very uncolored and clear, and while very dynamic and fast, is also quite relaxed. It is a very unusual combination; I think many people are used to coloration and peakiness in response and call it "full bodied" or punchy or dynamic. The current sound of the rms are totally lacking in such colorations, allowing the soundstage to open up in a very relaxed and natural manner, as far as the recording allows. A well recorded big band or a powerful rock recording can blow you out of your chair, just as the real thing can. There are those for whom some from of thickening or sweetening is a preference; they may not warm to these.

[woodsyi]

I can understand "bleached" if the ribbons are driven by a very sterile SS amp which is why I go with tubes on the ribbon.  "lacking dynamics" is just silly and not true.  He can't be talking about macro dynamics since Neos operate at a very wide range.  As for microdynamics, neos will punch with the best of woofers if you give it enough juice.  It will also trill and flutter with the best electrostats in reproducing gorgeous female vocals.

[inRMsway]

I owned the IRS Deltas for many years and came to discover their weaknesses while enjoying their strengths. In the long run the hole in the midbass made me realize that the L-Emim was just not up to the task and I reworked the crossover to move all the crossover points up (except the Semit) this removed the glare from the Emit and Emim and kept the L-Emim from buzzing and slapping while actually making piano even richer as the L-Emim was now handling much of it. The crossover has zener diodes as 'crowbars' and that is probably what hammers your amp by giving it basically a short when you try to have too much fun with the volume. The older RS 4.5 outperforms the IRS Delta but has bloated imaging as it's drawback.   I've heard but not owned the Focus and they were quite good but not as expansive sounding as a dipole like the Deltas.
I now have the RM 40 (with FST tweeter and TRT caps) and it is a very precise and life-like sound that will make the Deltas seem downright sloppy in comparison. It is a clean sound, so you may have some withdrawl pains from the 'fuller' bass (higher Q) that you have been used to, but you will hear things much more distinctly. So with time you will see how much you were missing in your recordings. 
At 250 lbs each, your wife will still worry about you crushing a child or 2 when you set them up though.

[Yar762]

inRMsway,

Thanks for the response.  You are "spot on" on all fronts with respect to the performance of the Deltas.  I also experienced the annoying slapping of the L-EMIMs at certain frequencies when I would push them hard.  I have actually sold them now and they are on their way to Alaska!  I was thinking about your xover mods, but even if I could have taylored the sound with adjustments, I still would have sold them.  The lack of replacement drivers and repair parts kept me up at night.  I had this crazy fear of frying an L-EMIM!  In any event, I have decided to go forward with the RM40s.  I am working with John and will be purchasing a pair with the MLS Rosewood/Piano Gloss Finish, FST tweeters, and Auric Caps.  If the kids are strong enough to tip these beasts - then I have real problems!  That means they will be whoopin my ars real soon! Not sure I will miss anything in the bass region - both the Deltas and the Focus could pull out deep bass given the right music (such as Ramsey Lewis, Ivory Pyramids), but the mid-bass punch and excitement was always missing.  I am a drummer and I have yet to find a speaker that can accurately reproduce the live sound of a kit correctly.  I am hoping that the 40s will bring me closer to my nirvana!

[fredgarvin]

I'm a drummer myself, and having had the RM1 and 626, I can tell you that VMPS has, as a strength, the ability to produce real sounding drums. That and a midrange that is very palpable. I can remember being startled a couple of times when it was just as if someone whacked the tom in the room. So many other speakers sound soft or plummy with drums in comparison.