Anyone ever cryo'd gear?

Hantra · « **on:** 9 Jul 2003, 02:02 pm »

All:

I was thinking of having some tubes cryo'd, and while I was thinking about that, I thought "Why not have my monoblocks cryo'd as well?".

So, has anyone ever cryo'd an entire piece of gear? I am scared to do it because it is quite irreversible. What effects did you notice from the cryo treating of gear, as opposed to cable, or tubes?

Thx!

B

JoshK · « **Reply #1 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 02:31 pm »

I would be a little bit leary of any plastic parts on the unit in question. Such as tube holders (don't know the correct name) slot thingies, fuses, etc. I had one of my eichmann plugs crack after having been cryo'd but it turned out not to be an issue. I just think that plastic doesn't like to be cryo'd. Wayne (of bolder cables) suggested I get my Sony XA777 cryo'd. Not sure if he was serious. You might ask him his thoughts. He cryo'd a DIO I think.

giorgino1 · « **Reply #2 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 02:32 pm »

Just a smiley test

Marbles · « **Reply #3 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 02:38 pm »

I had my ART DI/O, power supply and digital cable cryo'd.

Since they were gone 3 weeks, I could not A/B and the time lag was such that I could not say with any degree of certainty what change occured....but if pressed, I thought it sounded "smoother" after the cryo.

The cryo'ing was done by Ray Kimber in a very controlled way.

KevinW · « **Reply #4 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 05:07 pm »

I know Dan Wright also cryo's entire P3A's. However, I also know that he uses a vapor cryo outfit, which has temps a bit warmer than the vapor point of liquid nitrogen. I think the danger of cryoning a whole monoblock is the plastic parts, and the capacitors. I'm not sure how IC's survive either, if your monos have IC's. But find a vapor cryo shop, and ask them if they think it's a good idea. Typically, they charge by the pound. Certainly if your amp survived, it would probably have significant sonic benefits as all wire and transformers will be affected.

I also know that you definitely shouldn't use a liquid cryo treatment. Jena labs does not recommend caps in their liquid cryo tank. Liquid cryo is much colder, and has a more beneficial effect than vapor cryo on resistors, wire, diodes, and transformers.

jackman · « **Reply #5 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 05:13 pm »

OT: Kevin, how's that solder sucker working out?

Secondly, I'd love to see anyone tell the difference in a double blind test between two identical components (one cryo'd and one not). Has anyone ever done this? Has anyone ever published anything scientific on this one?

Marbles: my audio memory isn't up to the task of evaluating gear after three weeks. I have trouble telling the difference (especially subtle differences) in gear after a couple of seconds. Have you ever done any side by side comparisons between your cryo'd DIO and a non-cryo'd identical model?

Thanks,
J

Marbles · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 05:15 pm »

MaxCast · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 06:20 pm »

Sign up for the Bolder Audition Pack. It has non-cryo'd and cryo'd M-80 I/C's, Digital cables and CDs.

jqp · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 06:21 pm »

My understanding of cryoing is that it theoretically straightens out the crystal lattices in conductive metals (and ceramics?), getting them closer to being superconductors from the point of view of quantum science. Anything else would be a waste and probably destructive. Liquid nitrogen baths destroy balloons and roses (as seen in science class and on TV). Layered circuit boards, transistors, capacitors, tubes, and probably many soldered connections would suffer from this treatment. Correct me if I am wrong. Of course 'magic' cryoing wouldn't hurt a flea.

randytsuch · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 06:22 pm »

Hi guys,
I have done some DIY cryo treatments with dry ice, based on some info Stan Warren gave me.
I know people will say dry ice does not get cold enough for permanent changes, but so far, it has worked for me.

At one point I did compare some identical Monster IC's, one was cryo'ed in dry ice overnight, and the other was stock.

I heard a difference the cryo'ed one did sound better, and I remember the difference was obvious. I did not do it double blind.

Randy

randytsuch · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 06:52 pm »

Quote from: jqp

My understanding of cryoing is that it theoretically straightens out the crystal lattices in conductive metals (and ceramics?), getting them closer to being superconductors from the point of view of quantum science. Anything else would be a waste and probably destructive. Liquid nitrogen baths destroy balloons and roses (as seen in science class and on TV). Layered circuit boards, transistors, capacitors, tubes, and probably many soldered connections would suffer from this treatment. Correct me if I am wrong. Of course 'magic' cryoing wouldn't hurt a flea.

JQP,
I think the trick is to very slowly bring the thing down in temperature, and slowly bring it back up. If you just immerse something in liquid nitrogen, the thermal shock will be huge, and things would break. If the item is already almost as cold, then you immerse it, it doesn't see that great a shock, and it may survive.
OTOH, most parts I know of (caps and IC's and stuff like that) are not rated to go down that cold, so they may or may not survive. Dry ice does not get that cold, so I don't worry too much about breaking something.

Randy

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 07:31 pm »

Cryogenic treatment is the single most cost effective improvement that can be done to the power end of an audio/video system. This is especially true for outlets. Not all materials are well suited for this treatment, though. Liquid N2 immersion is the best for power cords, receptacles, ICs and speaker cables. My speaker's crossover boards were also LN2 immersed.

Vapor treatment is best suited for circuit boards and other components intolerant of LN2 immersion. Lak is very knowledgeable on this subject.

One thing that needs to be noted is that there is no industry standard for cryo treatment. Lak had two Absolute Power Cords vapor cryo'ed locally and I compared one with my Jena Labs LN2 cryo'ed Absolute and they were like two different power cords. The Jena Labs cryo'ed had a lower noise floor, deeper bass and more extension at the frequency extremes. We call that vapor treatment "half ass cryo".

Edit: My Channel Islands DAC is a cryo'ed version and Dan Wright had the boards of my Marchand electronic crossover cryo'ed.

KevinW · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 09:30 pm »

Quote from: jackman

OT: Kevin, how's that solder sucker working out?

Secondly, I'd love to see anyone tell the difference in a double blind test between two identical components (one cryo'd and one not). Has anyone ever done this? Has anyone ever published anything scientific on this one?

Hey, that sucker is GREAT. Thanks for the good deal. I don't know how I ever did mods without it.

I haven't done any double blind tests on cryo, because I think that double blind is a waste of time. However, I have done single-blind tests, and the difference was noticeable to all the experienced audiophiles present. Regarding scientific tests... if anybody has done this, they aren't talking. I would warrant a guess that there isn't much research funding available in this field. I personally would question whether anything "scientific" could be measured when you are dealing with personal, subjective analysis (aka, the ear/brain combination). The ear/brain is simply so much more sensitive to SUBTLE changes in audio than any scientific measuring system.

JoshK · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Jul 2003, 11:23 pm »

I have no academic background in the ear/brain mechanism but I have plenty in the eye/brain mechanism. It is crazy how far we are in pattern recognition from what a quick sweep of an eye can tell.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Jul 2003, 03:16 am »

I have the Bolder audition pack-played both demo cds, cryo and non-cryo,did not hear a difference but the music was excellent.Next to compare ic's, cryo and non-cryo.

Redbeard · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Jul 2003, 09:46 am »

There is an excellent thread on cryo here:

http://www.audioholics.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=3f0e84090fc4ffff;act=ST;f=4;t=538

Enthusiasts and experts alike chime in, in an informative and gentlemanly discourse. Those of you who swear that cryo improves the sound of your equipment might consider posting your opinions there.

One thing I found interesting about that thread was that not a single person with any shred of credibility defended the practice of cryo-ing audio gear. That includes metallurgists, engineers from multiple disciplines, as well as the owner of a cryo company. YMMV

-dave-

Redbeard · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Jul 2003, 02:22 pm »

By the way, that thread also contains a superlative discussion regarding audible anomalies attributable to the shift of electrical current flowing through the core of a wire to flowing near the surface of the wire. However, this side topic is not related to, nor does anyone on the thread claim it to be related to cryo.

I whole-heartedly recommend that anyone interested in either of these subjects read and reread that thread. It is well worth the time spent

-dave-

KevinW · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Jul 2003, 03:13 pm »

Okay,
I read that thread... and to be honest, most of those people made some mistake of some kind or another. As an ex-scientist myself, I see a lot parallels in that discussion with the resistance of a scientific body towards shifting to an entirely new paradigm. For example the following quote shows what I mean:

"As for proof, ask ANY of the cable companies who perform cryo-treatments on their cables to show you measurements relating to a change in resistance, inductance or capacitance. What you’ll get instead is a total BS story about how it’s not measurable and the benefit is accomplished on a microscopic level by the improvement to the micro structure of the material. Well, since electrons don't give a rip about the micro structure of the material, there is NO validity to these claims. You can stress relieve a cable all you want via cryo-freezing, but the electrons are still going to only react to resistance, inductance and capacitance, not internal stresses and micro structure."

Cryogenics doesn't effect the classic measurements of cable properties (resistance, capacitance, inductance) at all. However it does affect the quantum mechanical properties of the cable, which do in fact directly influence the ability to the cable to transmit electrons. It's damn hard to measure the effect of cryo, except with your ears. Which as you know, is imperfect, and subject to your personal beliefs clouding your perception.

There's one more significant problem I see on that thread, which is that several respected engineers tried out cryogenics and didn't find scientific evidence. In fact one said he tried dunking wire in LN2, and found it caused significant structural harm to the cable and thus didn't recommend it. He also said that didn't try slow cooling/warming phases. Heh, well I could have predicted that result! In cryo, it is essential to do all temperature changes SLOWLY, or else you will damage the component. Period. Immersion cryo is especially hard to perfect such that there is no damage.

KevinW · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Jul 2003, 03:15 pm »

Okay,
I read that thread... and to be honest, most of those people made some mistake of some kind or another. As an ex-scientist myself, I see a lot parallels in that discussion with the resistance of a scientific body towards shifting to an entirely new paradigm. For example the following quote shows what I mean:

"As for proof, ask ANY of the cable companies who perform cryo-treatments on their cables to show you measurements relating to a change in resistance, inductance or capacitance. What you’ll get instead is a total BS story about how it’s not measurable and the benefit is accomplished on a microscopic level by the improvement to the micro structure of the material. Well, since electrons don't give a rip about the micro structure of the material, there is NO validity to these claims. You can stress relieve a cable all you want via cryo-freezing, but the electrons are still going to only react to resistance, inductance and capacitance, not internal stresses and micro structure."

Cryogenics doesn't effect the classic measurements of cable properties (resistance, capacitance, inductance) at all. However it does affect the quantum mechanical properties of the cable, which do in fact directly influence the ability to the cable to transmit electrons. It's damn hard to measure the effect of cryo, except with your ears. Which as you know, is imperfect, and subject to your personal beliefs clouding your perception.

There's one more significant problem I see on that thread, which is that several respected engineers tried out cryogenics and didn't find scientific evidence. In fact one said he tried dunking wire in LN2, and found it caused significant structural harm to the cable and thus didn't recommend it. He also said that didn't try slow cooling/warming phases. Heh, well I could have predicted that result! In cryo, it is essential to do all temperature changes SLOWLY, or else you will damage the component. Period. Immersion cryo is especially hard to perfect such that there is no damage.

gonefishin · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Jul 2003, 03:37 pm »

Hey guys...great discussion...thanks for the link.

My view on this...does cryo'ing have an effect on metal...yes. Does cryo'ing have an audible effects on components of ones system? don't know for sure...I have actually never tried it (I may give it a try someday...but I've got others things to upgrade first) Does putting audio components in a freezer, flash freezer or dry ice do anything to them? YES! it makes them cold for a little while. I just don't see how this can even be compared to cryo cables (or anything else). Cryo'ing cables does have an effect on the metals...from there it can at least be argued whether or not these effects which did take place produce an audible difference. Freezing the cables (or whatever you chose to freeze) does nothing to the metal other than make them physically cold for a relatively short time.

As I've said...I have not tried cryo'ing anything for audio use...but I would be interested if anyone can answer a question. Can cryo'ing tubes strengthen the internal metal structure adding time to the life of the tubes? Would they "wear" any different...or better?

I did ask my uncle about this...he just kinda looked at me...and asked...what? I explained again and he gave me a brief description on conductivity, then moved the conversation to another topic. Could this just have been a case of a person having knowledge in science...but no experience in testing/listening/measuring audio equipment...where he may be a knowledgeable individual...but his knowledge isn't based on things audio? Sure...I suppose this could be true. I can certainly tell you that he has never done any experiments with audio equipment...other than casually listening to music. He never did answer me if cryo'ing a cable can have an audible effect on a system or not. But I wouldn't say he's a slouch either...he is a recently retired physicist who worked at fermilab for many years. Actually...they do have a cool site...with some cool links too. Check it out if you get time...here's a link to their current project page. http://www.fnal.gov/pub/about/experiments/index.html

Just thought I'd share a few of my thoughts/experiences with you guys on the subject matter.

take care>>>>>