Anyone ever cryo'd gear?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 5006 times.

JackStraw

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 256
Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #20 on: 11 Jul 2003, 03:52 pm »
Quote from: KevinW
However, I have done single-blind tests, and the difference was noticeable to all the experienced audiophiles present.


Your word choice here made me snicker. Please don't take this as a personal attack, but the skeptic in me must point out that in a lot of cases "Experienced audiophiles" = "brainwashed lemmings with money".

I can see the scenario now...

Group audition -- one guy convinces himself that he hears the difference. He says so, the unblind cable-swapper can't help but grin. The enlightened one to first hear the difference then says.

"Boy, that's like night and day. Don't you hear it? What... are you, inexperienced?"

Just a thought.

Carlman

Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #21 on: 11 Jul 2003, 03:53 pm »
Quote from: gonefishin
Hey guys...great discussion...thanks for the link.

I did ask my uncle about this...he just kinda looked at me...and asked...what? I explained again and he gave me a brief description on conductivity, then moved the conversation to another topic. Could this just have been a case of a person having knowledge in science...but no experience in testing/listening/measuring audio equipment...where he may be a knowledgeable individual...but his knowledge isn't based on things audio? ...


I think what happens is you reach the "anal threshold" quickly when talking to non-hifi enthusiasts.  If you're not into this kind of thing, his first thought was probably "What kind of ultra-super-critical listening does one do to hear the effects of frozen and then thawed cable?"  

My Grandad is an EE and trying to explain the 'science' of better cable is just nuts to him.  If it meets the specified load requirements, it is sufficient.  If I told him what I'd paid for speaker cables he'd think I was part of a cable cult, worshipping a cable god....

Yet to people here, a couple hundred bucks isn't too bad...

Does cryo work?  I don't know, haven't tried... it's beyond my "AT".  

I know I can tell that steak and chicken doesn't taste as good when it's frozen and then thawed but, that's meat.  However, clearly something changed and I could detect it by my senses.  Would tests verify my sensory findings?

gonefishin

Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #22 on: 11 Jul 2003, 04:11 pm »
Quote from: Carlman
I think what happens is you reach the "anal threshold" quickly when talking to non-hifi enthusiasts.  If you're not into this kind of thing, his first thought was probably "What kind of ultra-super-critical listening does one do to hear the effects of frozen and then thawed cable?"  

My Grandad is an EE and trying to explain the 'science' of better cable is just nuts to him.  If it meets the specified load requirements, it is sufficient.  If I told him what I'd paid for speaker cables he'd think I was pa ...



   Carl...I agree with you...which is why I tried to word my post the way I did...making it clear that audio may have just been outside his scope of "what's important"...and I also wanted to make it clear that he never did give me an answer.  But he is the only individual I know of who has actual experience working in the quantum world.  I know a few other EE and physicists (and many more online)...but none that I know have the hands on experience with quantum physics, beyond the book stuff.

gonefishin

Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #23 on: 11 Jul 2003, 04:31 pm »
oh carl...about the meat.  From what I have read freezing meat changes the taste, texture and moisture content of the meat.  Also, They recommend for proper freezing of meat that the freezer be set at a minimum of 0degrees Fahrenheit....they also note that most home freezers are not set this low.  

   These are the times they provide when meat is stored in a freezer set at zero degrees  Fahrenheit.  Beef, veal,lamb steaks and roasts should be left in their original packaging and placed in a sealed bag for up to one year (noting again...that flavor, texture and moisture content will be changed by the freezing)  pork for 4-8 months...ground meat for 3 months and sausages for less than 3 months.  They also comment that for best taste and texture to buy fresh...but if you must freeze...to eat it within one months time for all meat.

     I try to buy meat when I'm actually going to cook it...it's not always covienient...but it does taste better.

eric the red

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1738
Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #24 on: 11 Jul 2003, 04:37 pm »
I've got some previously cryoed Alaskan King Crab in the refrig that I'm thawing for dinner tonite. Mmmmm-King Crab :D

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11482
  • Without music, life would be a mistake.
Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #25 on: 11 Jul 2003, 04:48 pm »
My submission to this discussion - my wife does aptitude testing for a living.  Among the tests are auditory aptitudes.  People vary (wildly) in their ability to hear differences in tone, rhythm, and pitch, and I'm sure there are other areas that she does not test for that exist as well.  She also tests some vision aspects as well, and people also vary wildly in their ability to discriminate between similar colors.

The point is that some people may, in fact, hear some things that other people simply are incapable of hearing (due to genetics), and if that's the case, there's no need for people to get their panties in a bunch, just accept that some people might hear things that others don't.  If you happen to not hear differences, be glad, it will save you a lot of money.

Redbeard

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 18
Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #26 on: 11 Jul 2003, 04:52 pm »
I'd like to thank you guys for bringing a smile to my face.  BTW, can anyone tell me if a cryo'd cable tastes any different than a non-cryo'd one?

-dave-

nathanm

Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #27 on: 11 Jul 2003, 06:03 pm »
Quote from: JackStraw
Your word choice here made me snicker. Please don't take this as a personal attack, but the skeptic in me must point out that in a lot of cases "Experienced audiophiles" = "brainwashed lemmings with money".


Congratulations Jackstraw!  You are now ready to become a successful hifi dealer or manufacturer! :drums: Yay!

jqp

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 3964
  • Each CD lovingly placed in the nOrh CD-1
Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #28 on: 12 Jul 2003, 07:49 am »
Quote from: gonefishin
...I did ask my uncle about this...he just kinda looked at me...and asked...what? I explained again and he gave me a brief description on conductivity, then moved the conversation to another topic. ...


This makes me smile and almost chuckle. Guess he doesn't think there is anything to it  :lol: Maybe he hasn't really considered it much, but it sounds like your uncle feels that the basic accepted concepts of conductivity apply more practically to the subject than quantum effects that might be caused by cryoing.

I don't know enough to draw conclusions, but I have been looking into a little.

Did you know:

Jack Bybee did his secret submarine sonar quantum physics stuff in the EARLY 70's?

Bybee apparently felt, at least in 1997, the Bybee filters should go in series at the power input part of the chain and not in other configurations.

Bybee filters are mostly Ceramics, which are created by baking in a kiln?

"Deep cryogenic tempering may be used to increase the strength of gun barrels, engine components, musical instruments and brake rotors. "

"Cryogenic Tempering has been hailed as the single greatest advancement for brass musical instruments in the past 50 years.  
By treating the brass musical instruments at ultra cold temperatures, inherent stresses within the structure of the brass are released. This allows your instrument to play cleaner and perform the way it was designed.  

Brass instruments respond exceptionally well to the cryogenic process, providing a more pleasant, rounder resonant tone.  
Guitar, Piano and Violin strings sound better, stay in tone longer, and last longer.  
Valves feel better and smoother.  
Horns have a smoother, rounder sound and are freer blowing with improved pitch centering. "

Cyogenics is used to aid in doping one substance onto another substance such as metal onto a semiconductor. Maybe used in creation of bybee filters?

One guy claims:
"Now keep an open mind, cryogenic metal treatment technology
has been used for many years in areas of Aerospace, Nascar, Drag
racing, F1, just to name a few.  However, it's not talked about much.
When a metal part is "Cryo'd" it is put into a computer controlled
chamber, where the chamber's jacket is filled with liquid
nitrogen (which never comes in contact with the part), then the
temperature is taken down to -300 F,  held there for a period,
then raised slowly to a specified tempering temp.
I'm no "metallurgist" but what I understand, it takes the molecular
tension (due to the manufacturing process) out of the part, re-aligns
the molecules, thus improving the strength, wear resistance, and
resistance to warpage."

and Cryo Science in California claims:

"How Cryogenic Treatment Works!

When metal is initially formed at normal atmospheric pressure and temperature the atoms & molecules are disorganized and there are weak particles in the metal called Austenite, these are actually large unstable particles of carbon.

What cryogenic processing does is to convert these weak and unstable carbon particles into Martensite, which are very strong and stable carbide particles. This transformation takes place the same way that regular carbon (which is soft and weak) is converted into diamonds… which is the hardest most durable material know to man – IT TAKES VERY EXTREME PRESSURE! Diamonds are pure carbon, however they have perfectly aligned carbon atoms!

In Cryogenic Processing the EXTREME PRESSURE comes from the physics of freezing to –300 degrees and the resultant contracting of the metal. This contraction, which would also happen under extreme pressure, forces the atoms & molecules to align and fit together tightly.

Once the metal warms back up to atmospheric temperature and pressure the molecules return to their normal spacing however now they are now highly organized, forming one virtually continuous strength piece of metal without the stress spots and weak particles that were in the metal prior to Cryogenic Processing.

Under a microscope you can actually see that the surface of the metal has become much smoother. This smoothing greatly reduces friction (which greatly reduces heat) and increases the resistance to wear of the metal up to 300%.

Cryogenic Processing works for virtually all kinds of metal or metal alloys and some plastics such as nylon.
Cryo'ing metal golf clubs will increase your driving distance up to 15 yards.
Cryo'd Golf club heads have a greatly enlarged Sweet Spot and that means grater accuracy for your drives.
Cryo'ing Golf balls average a 10 yard increase.
Cryo'd razor blades stay sharp twice as long.
It dramatically increases the tonal quality of brass and metal Musical instruments.
Target shooters Cryo their gun barrels to virtually eliminate heat deformation and increase accuracy.
Motorsports racing enthusiast have their engines, drivetrains, & suspension parts Cryo’d to increase strength by up to 50% and can double the life of engine & drivetrain parts that are subject to wear and fatigue.
Wood Workers, Machine shops, and Plastics fabricators, Cryo their cutting blades and bits to typically increase as much as 2 to 3 times the amount of material cut before having to re-sharpen or replace their blades and bits.
Cryogenic processing is a one-time process that lasts for the life of the item.
Cryo’d metals can be machined or sharpened as much as you have cutting tip or edge and will retain all the improved properties throughout their life.
If you are going to do any Heat treating, nitriding or other massaging of the metals you should do them first and cryo afterwards to clean up any inconsistancies or stresses in the metal that the other treatments may have caused.
You should expect around a 30% to 50% increase in Strength and around double the life for all Cryo’d metal items that are subject to wear and double the resistance to fatigue!
"
Doesn't address what happens on the quantum physics-level, but there seem to be some agreed upon molecular-level benefits.

JackStraw

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 256
Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #29 on: 12 Jul 2003, 10:43 am »
Another angle on this topic that I find very interesting is that cryo often is often offered as an option to take cables to the "next level". On one hand, this is a good approach for cable manufactures to take because it allows the customer to decide whether the extra cost is worth it.

But, if cryo provides such a fantastic benefit, why shouldn't the cable guys just do this as a standard process step rather than a option? I know that the answer is that lots of us will pay extra for it, but think about it... Vendors are trying to produce the best cables that they can at whatever price point we're talking about. So, if cryo gave a cost effective upgrade, wouldn't the right business decision be to include it as standard?

That being said, I'm looking forward to joining up with the DE group checking out the MENSA audition pack from Bolder. Kudos to Wayne for setting this up, and kudos to him for including vanilla and cryo'ed M-80 ICs and other parts so that customers all over the country can make their own decisions.

bubba966

Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #30 on: 12 Jul 2003, 05:14 pm »
Quote from: JackStraw
But, if cryo provides such a fantastic benefit, why shouldn't the cable guys just do this as a standard process step rather than a option? I know that the answer is that lots of us will pay extra for it, but think about it... Vendors are trying to produce the best cables that they can at whatever price point we're talking about. So, if cryo gave a cost effective upgrade, wouldn't the right business decision be to include it as standard?


I'm betting that there's at least 2 different reasons why it's not a "standard" feature with cable manufacturers.

First is that many, many people think that cryo'ing is in the "snake oil" category. And for those people, the extra $20 or so it costs for an average cable to be cryo'd is a complete waste of money. Would you want to waste money on an option you felt to be worth less?

Second, it takes time to cryo things. And not everyone cares to wait. The only cryo'ing I've had done has been on my digital's that Wayne's built me. And he's always cautioning people on the length of time to cryo a cable, and makes sure that the current wait time is acceptable to you so that you can decide to cryo it or not. I personally don't mind waiting X amount of weeks extra to get my cables cryo'd. I know what cryo'ing does, and feel it's worth the slightly extra cost & the added wait time. But I know that some people don't care to wait for the cryo process. For those people cryo'ing is also probably not desireable.

JackStraw

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 256
Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #31 on: 12 Jul 2003, 06:28 pm »
Quote from: bubba966
I'm betting that there's at least 2 different reasons why it's not a "standard" feature with cable manufacturers.

First is that many, many people think that cryo'ing is in the "snake oil" category. And for those people, the extra $20 or so it costs for an average cable to be cryo'd is a complete waste of money. Would you want to waste money on an option you felt to be worth less?

Second, it takes time to cryo things. And not everyone cares to wait. The only cryo'ing I've had done has been on my digita ...


Right. I wasn't thinking about 100% custom built wire houses. For them I think that your points are very valid. But, with a decent grasp on standard staple items and simple forecasting, you can get beyond added lead time and thinking that it costs $20/cable to cryo. Finished cables should have a pretty long shelf life. In that case, the cryo magic could be "invisible" to the customer unless they ask.

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10745
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #32 on: 13 Jul 2003, 03:00 am »
I just installed cryo'd plenum grade, solid strain, teflon coated CAT5 speaker cables and love them!  (More forward, more bass/treble, more detail, seemingly more efficient, better tonality.)

Previous cables were very regular multi-strain CAT5 which had bested Kimber Kable 4TC.  (More detailed, yet more mellow, loss of bass, less efficient.)

BTW, how do you get oil from a snake?  And where did that phrase come from anyway?

jeff

grub

Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #33 on: 13 Jul 2003, 03:41 am »
I've heard about cryoing instruments for maybe 10 years or so...I finally asked a few people about it and the basic answer is that it removes the stresses introduced during the creation of instruments.  If you've ever seen a french horn bell that's been creased, you'll notice that the dent swirles around the bell due to these stresses.

I've been told that an instrument can naturally relieve these stresses over the course of about 50 years, but that's a long time to wait, so people actually do get this done to their horns.  I visited the UMI factory this past winter and watched some horn assembly, and they're surely many stresses created during the creation process--they usually start with straight tubes and sheets of brass and bend it around a jig of some type...hell, I watched the main curve of three french horns being bent while I was there.  Also, all of those mandrel bends they do on EVERY turn wants to be straight!  There are some high end horn makers that manufacture pieces already bent and with a perfectly round diameter, but there are relatively few of these companies.  

I've personally never messed with cryoing, but the tuba proff. at my old college had his tuba and liked the results.  From what I hear, they bake it first, then freeze it, then bring it back to normal temperature.  According to The Woodwind and the Brasswind catalog, the chamber changes temp approx. 1 degree per min. up to 300F and down to -300F.

Sorry for the rant, and back to the discussion!
-->grub (DIY cryo'ed all of his cables)

gonefishin

Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #34 on: 13 Jul 2003, 12:57 pm »
Quote from: JLM


BTW, how do you get oil from a snake?  And where did that phrase come from anyway?

jeff


   cold pressed

audioengr

Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #35 on: 13 Jul 2003, 05:14 pm »
I just finished modding a P-3A DAC from a customer in Australia.  It was previously Cryo-treated by Jena Labs.  When I compared it's sound to my reference P-3A, it was identical.

I did find however, that the D/A converter chip failed while I was testing it, so I had to replace it.  Cryo did not appear to be worth it in this case.

Psychicanimal

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1032
Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #36 on: 14 Jul 2003, 04:32 am »
Quote from: audioengr
I just finished modding a P-3A DAC from a customer in Australia.  It was previously Cryo-treated by Jena Labs.  When I compared it's sound to my reference P-3A, it was identical.

I did find however, that the D/A converter chip failed while I was testing it, so I had to replace it.  Cryo did not appear to be worth it in this case.


When I took the DeZorel filter to my friend Tony's house I also took my Jena Labs cryo'ed Absolute power Cord.  When I swapped the Absolute on Tony's Cambridge CDP for the cryo'ed one I asked Tony's wife if she could hear a difference.  She said the cryo'ed was "suave".  Right answer.

ABEX

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 777
Anyone ever cryo'd gear?
« Reply #37 on: 14 Jul 2003, 08:23 am »
I really cannot see having cryo done to anything that would risk damage.

I think Copper is pretty safe,but then again I would like to know what the process is that is being used.

I am tempted to get Caps,Inductors and Resistors done,but then I feel reluctant because they shall be matched and would be worried that the process might tip that balance. I would have the person doing it test them to make sure they are ok and still balanced.

There are photo shots of what happens to metal surfaces before and after or treated vs. untreated,but there are no ligit hearing test or measurements done on parts .That really bugs me.

I have cryo'd cable and still think there are bene's,but to what extent is questionable. Silver and plated meterials need to be looked at closely to see what changes have occured. I think that might be the best materials to see change and effect.

Good luck with your cryoing ventures!