1801s, SCC300 & the Marchand XM9

Nikko · « **on:** 6 Jan 2003, 06:45 am »

Against my better judgement I decided to challenge Dave's infinite wisdom and try high-pass filtering the 1801s. Prevailing thought is that you should only augment the bass of the 1801s. Well, with a high quality active crossover such as the Marchand I can report fantastic results. I've never listened to a bone-stock XM9 so I can't comment on their performance (though I expect it to be very good), but the unit I have with updated Burr Brown ICs, Relcaps, Harris Hex Fred's, OCC wire, power supply bypass caps..etc.etc. is fantastic. I have very good hearing and if there is any added coloration to the 1801s I can't detect it. The XM9 is dead quiet. Soundstage depth and width, midrange purity, treble, and all the other areas one would examine for coloration all seem intact. After listening to the high-passed 1801s for a while I decided to add my newly completed (today) sub to the mix. The sub uses (of course) the SCC300 driver in a 4 cu. ft. enclosure made from 1 1/2" thick MDF throughout. WOW! The plaster on my walls is cracking!

Let me adjust the low-pass gain in the XM9.

After playing with the damping & level controls for about 15 minutes I was able to dial-in and blend the sub prett well. At this point I'm satisfied to leave it alone because I'm crossing over at 50hz and I'll be swapping in 80hz resistor packs in a couple days. Once I've done that I'll spend considerably more time getting the sub perfectly mated to the 1801s. I'll probably run ETF to help ease setup. Once I've increased the crossover frequency and have everything adjusted properly I'll do a follow-up here with my findings. At that point I'll be looking for greater dynamics and midrange clarity.

Panasonic DVD-H2000>Monster Power HTS3000>Melos SHA Gold Reference>Marchand XM9>Sonic Frontiers Power 2>Ellis 1801s>SCC300 sub>Hafler SE240>Harmonic Tech Pro-9 Plus>DIY Superlatives

David Ellis · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Jan 2003, 10:28 pm »

Jeff,

I am glad that your tentative results are pleasant. I am always a little concerned then someone tries to integrate a subwoofer. It seems that they are always a little finiky. I believe a clean subwoofer can sound very decent.

If you manage to implement a good 80hz high pass on the 1801, and keep the distortion low on the subwoofer, then the sound should improve. I believe ANY midrange/midwoofer driver with less load will sound better with less thermal compression. The heat build and dissipation from low frequencies will theoretically impede some of the high hz signal through the voice coil. This is simply beause hot wire is more resistive. This is true whether the wire is suspended in mid air, or wound in a voice coil. Having puttered with the SCC300, I suspect you will have little/no problems here. You cabinet is solid and the SCC300 cone is darn stiff. I don't think it'll get floppy until waaaay higher in the frequency response range.

Probably the very best example of unloading a midrange I have heard was on the Hales Revelation 2. It used a 570hz high pass on the Vifa midrange. The Hales Revelation 3 used a 400h high pass crossover for the SAME Vifa midrange. The midrange sound quality from the LESS expensive Revelation 2 was much better. This should work with a high pass on the W18 too.

But, there is always the "X" factor. Maybe 80hz through the subwoofer will be too localizable for your ears.

Please let us now what you find.

Dave

Tyson · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Jan 2003, 10:37 pm »

One way to avoid localization - go with stereo subs

Seriously, with a marchand, you should have a stereo crossover, no reason not to use stereo subs and place the subs physically close to the speakers.

Nikko · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Jan 2003, 05:32 am »

Tyson...I'd love to go with stereo subs. The only problem is that my sub bares a striking resemblence to yours, albeit a little smaller. Can you imagine having two of those in the same room (living room no less)?

It would never fly with my fiancee. If I go with stereo subs I'd have to do something a little more aesthetically pleasing.

Tyson · « **Reply #4 on:** 7 Jan 2003, 06:16 am »

You could do a bottom firing sub ala the ACI subs. Do a sealed version with a high output driver, and you are set. Perhaps a Blueprint 1203 driver. Has a Vas of only 44 liters I believe (very small), but is very powerful (you heard the 1503 at my place, it's big brother). Build a super rigid/braced cabinet, and you can use the subs as stands for the 1801's (just use the same type of finish for a match), and use some type of isolation material between the 1801 and the subs. Voila, stereo subs, high output, low Q, suberb transient response, and will have crazy headroom and loudness capabilities.

doug s. · « **Reply #5 on:** 7 Jan 2003, 05:51 pm »

unless you have a really small room, and can mount your sub directly in the middle of the monitors, i strongly recommend a pair of subs. even if the bass isn't localized w/one sub, the soundstaging will improve w/a pair...

doug s.

David Ellis · « **Reply #6 on:** 8 Jan 2003, 02:24 am »

I have always thought 1 sub sounded just a little bit wrong. It seemed to eschew the bass to one side or the other. Setups with 2 subwoofers just seem to sound better.

I have, however, never performed an a/b test with the same subwoofers and monitors.

Dave

Jay S · « **Reply #7 on:** 8 Jan 2003, 03:12 am »

Quote from: doug s.

unless you have a really small room, and can mount your sub directly in the middle of the monitors, i strongly recommend a pair of subs. even if the bass isn't localized w/one sub, the soundstaging will improve w/a pair...

doug s.

I've toyed with the idea of using a single VMPS New Original or Larger sub (perhaps wired in stereo) as a coffee table in front of my listening position. I could perhaps put a thick glass top on it (tinted, rounded edges, with Tenderfoot isolation footers between the glass and the sub) to help with the aesthetics. I'm not sure if it will work aesthetically in my living room, but its the best way to make sure, in my room, that the bass from a sub will not be localized to one side.

doug s. · « **Reply #8 on:** 8 Jan 2003, 03:53 am »

jay, if ya have to go w/only one sub, a nearfield placement would work best, imo - coffee-table style, as ya suggest. the best single-sub set-up i've heard is done this way. (older short/round hsu sub.) put yer feet up, & get a li'l foot massage!

nearfield is nice, cuz ya can have the sub turned down a bit, and still get the full impact... i also think nearfield is the best way to run down-firing subs. i prefer forward-firing subs, each sub flanking the monitors. this is how my older upright, forward-firing vmps largeer subs are set up...

doug s.