Balanced Power supply for T8

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CE2

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Re: Balanced Power supply for T8
« Reply #20 on: 16 Dec 2006, 01:07 pm »
 :duh: Yup, at first glance, my intuition was correct, and so is Frank's!!!    Read the NEC article about balanced power, at first glance it implys commercial install only....I ain't read it all, but seems to negate using at home, you is asking for trouble sooner or later.  Remeber dozens of space shuttles flew missions until, somthing happened.  No need for balanced at home...again, buy better speakers, and bigger amps, that will improve the sound more than messing with the AC systems.  Lot safer too.   http://www.equitech.com/support/647.html
« Last Edit: 16 Dec 2006, 01:19 pm by CE2 »

CE2

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Re: Balanced Power supply for T8
« Reply #21 on: 16 Dec 2006, 01:13 pm »

CE2

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Re: Balanced Power supply for T8
« Reply #22 on: 16 Dec 2006, 02:24 pm »
Furman PF-Pro-R works as advertised.   My main thing was to try and compensate for the large AC transformers (L) in my Hafler Pro500/AVA OmegaStar EX amps.  The PR-pro-R is basically a large capacitor across the line with other filtering components similar to the other Furmans, all good.  Thinking  it might somewhat correct the large induction with some capacitance, wether is does, I have yet to put a clamp on across the lines to see if it's lowering unused current  But from first glance, I see a SLIGHT reduction inidicated on the other Furman front panel current displays, PF units in front of other Furmans electrically.  I need to get a clamp on across the lines at the panel, with and without the PF in the system.  BUT, with the slightest chance it is doing a little, the PF-Pros them selves use power to operate according to Furman  instructions, which probably negate any savings on my part.  Anything under 90% PF is low pf.  Again, in a home enviorement it's all irrelavant basically, but if the entire block gets PF correction at the mains, it might help.  These amps are large, but they ain't no 12HP electric motors either.  This ain't no industrial site.   Perhaps the slight storge capacity of the PF units could add the slighest  improvement  when I CRANK IT!!!! 4800W of CRANKIN'.  Maybe it will compensate for some voltage drop on the old in wall 14ga NM.  I plan to, soon now that I have an upgraded service panel to 200A, and now have lotsa spaces for more breakers I want to add additional outlets feeding the stuff.  Right now on 3 AC ckts, but from other shared stuff. One even has a non audio grade orange outside use ext cord!!! How dare I?  But I had to split it up over 3 so I don't pop the breakers...when CRANKED, lotsa heat, lotsa wasted current.  18 or so A when cranked total on all 3 lines according to the Furman display.   PF units may have lowered it a few  hundred milliamps?  Maybe?  Irrelavant for any savings, Audible, who knows?  maybe I need some magic AC cords for the Furmans and AVA stuff?    Now would that be air filled, vacuum ones or a cross linked magic twisted folded,wrapped, about a 10ga to feed the Ultra EC.  Yeah 10 gauge wire for a pre amp!!!   One good thing and obvious is that it gave me all in one consolidated AC lines to straighten up all teh lines, each Furman has several outlets, then i added the Furman power distribution panel fed from teh others, so I have plenty of AC outlets in one neat close rack area, much better.  Furman makes great stuff.  Nice rack cases racks etc from  Mid Atlantic Products  All sie racks assys. Big small inbetween well made  Parts Express has some stuff like Mid Atlantic rack screws 500/bottle screws etc cheaper.  I got a lot also from  www.sweetwater.com  or  www.partsexpress.com

pearsall001

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Re: Balanced Power supply for T8
« Reply #23 on: 28 Dec 2006, 03:47 am »
I don't know, it looks pretty safe to me. Along with thousands of others in pro audio & home audio. It does one hell of a job to boot!!!!

http://www.intertek-etlsemko.com/portal/page?_pageid=34,86852&_dad=cust_portal&_schema=CUST_PORTAL

CE2

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Re: Balanced Power supply for T8
« Reply #24 on: 28 Dec 2006, 01:35 pm »
Did you know that legally an Electrical contractor CAN refuse to install something that is NOT UL or ETL listed for it's use?   I guess the entire UL or ETL or any other testing labs around the world are a hoax?  Kema-Kluer, DIN, and standards industry specs.  UL listed doesn't warranty anything ain't gonna have a problem, but it sure does reduce the effects, when there is.  CYA.  Would you install some Chinese swag ckt breakers in your house, not UL listed for that particular service panel....? they may work fine, until something happens.  There have been cases of bootleg junk finding itself out there, and tests confirm they do not do what they are supposed to do, in teh event of a short etc...as in they cause more trouble, like exloding and causing fires, cus they ain't made right to take a short rating for the particular panel as in either 10K or 22K Interupting ratings.  Balanced power ain't for home use.  The NEC specifically says NO, it's for commercial, etc, with proper lables and installation.  But then, who pays attention to the NEC, what do they know? The perceived audible improvement is probably another , I know it's balanced now, yup, it sounds much better.  So why would you want to energize the grounded conductor anyway?  Ever think what the effects down ckt will be?  Grounded conductor (nuetral) is just that.  at ground potential.  Not to be confused with earth  for protection ground. 

Occam

Re: Balanced Power supply for T8
« Reply #25 on: 28 Dec 2006, 09:45 pm »
Did you know that legally an Electrical contractor CAN refuse to install something that is NOT UL or ETL listed for it's use?   I guess the entire UL or ETL or any other testing labs around the world are a hoax?  Kema-Kluer, DIN, and standards industry specs.  UL listed doesn't warranty anything ain't gonna have a problem, but it sure does reduce the effects, when there is.  CYA.
Indeed. Sadly, this is problematic for even those conscientious manufacturers of audio components who, for economic reasons, can't afford ETL certification, even if they would pass with no, or minimal changes. I've a dealer friend that just mentioned his customers (mainly large, built in, home theater installs) often won't buy non-ETL certified components.
Similarly, many of the mainstream surge protector vendor's [Triplite, etc...] 'Protection Guarantees' are null and void if ANY of the connected components lack ETL certificates.
I believe that every single vendor who has a Circle on Audiocircle, and whose products connect to the mains via anything other than an ETL certified wall wart, is in exactly that same position.
.....
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Balanced power ain't for home use.  The NEC specifically says NO, it's for commercial, etc, with proper labels and installation.  But then, who pays attention to the NEC, what do they know?
Well, any homeowner with a major electrical appliance like a stove, dryer or air conditioner over 15,000BTU should be able to tell you otherwise. I use split phase (balanced) power all the time at home, its just that the voltages involved, North American 240vac (2 antiphase 120vac lines, which us old folks called 'House Power') are far more lethal, about 4 times more so, than the technical, balanced 120vac under discussion. And because a short ACCROSS both lines is far less likely than a single short, balanced power (split phase) is actually substantially safer than single phase mains, for equivalent net voltage swing.
How can this be?????  Well..... the manufacturers of 240vac residential appliances go to the incredible effort of fusing and switching BOTH lines and ensuring creepage and leakage values are met for both lines.
or as Frank  said -
Correct me if I am wrong, but this "balanced line" signal conditioner appears to put 60V AC on both the hot and ground side of the AC into the preamp.

This is unsafe, because it defeats the built in fuse protection in the preamp.   :o

The preamp is designed to modern standards with a polarized AC power plug putting the internal fuse first, ahead of everything else on the hot side of the AC line, followed by the switch, transformer, and back to ground.  If any internal failure to ground occurs in the preamp, the fuse blows, protecting the user.

With the hairbrained scheme that it appears the balanced line conditioner represents, there would still be 60V AC live in the preamp even after a fuse failure.

How many kids need to be electrocuted for the sake of supposedly "better sound"?  :nono:

Geeze   :cry:

Frank Van Alstine
Indeed, think of the kids. :bawl: :bawl: :bawl:
Just think of the poor, poor baby childs that could be saved from ineptitude of their delusional parents if only one were to say - ' Ummmm, don't do that unless you up(down, side)grade the component to double pole fusing and switching.'

I'm certainly not criticizing any vendor for not double fusing and switching, after all, without "is designed to modern standards" anymore so than I fault most all vendors for having (IMO) inadequate internal (where it belongs) power conditioning.

And even that is moot if one were to actually follow the NEC requirement that technical power be provided  via a GFCI. Fuses protect equipment far better than they protect people. Fault interrupters really do save lives as evidenced by the drastic lowering of incidents involving line connected vibrators and bathtubs. aa, in new construction requiring GFCIs in bathrooms.


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The perceived audible improvement is probably another , I know it's balanced now, yup, it sounds much better.....
Yes, it could be hysterical delusions, or alternatively it could be a subjective effect of the clearly measureable parameters such as net reactive leakage currents and transverse mode noise attenuation, Balancing power transformers have strong measureable advantages over straight isolation transformers whether their output is isolated (floating) or neutral bonded. Personally, I've given up on all transformer based conditioners as they're too big and expensive, but don't underestimate their efficacy. (Which is understandable if conclusions are based on non empirical methods.) Nor does a specific powerconditioning topology guarantee excellence, the Transcendence conditioner being rather mediocre, due to its lack of capacitively shunting shield between primary and secondary. But depending on the quality of the mains power, within its current constraints, it is capable of delivering substantial improvements. The already built, less expensive, cmc based PSAudio Duet is IMO preferable to the Transcendence balancing conditioner.
« Last Edit: 29 Dec 2006, 12:00 am by Occam »

CE2

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Re: Balanced Power supply for T8
« Reply #26 on: 29 Dec 2006, 11:39 am »
 :lol: PS Audio also sells non listed stuff. And even makeup "audio grade" definitions, on one of their wall outlets.   Balanced power on stuff desinged to have one leg the grounded conductor, is a no no.  Ya can't fuse neutral.  Another VIOLATION.  240 appliances use the other leg for return current.  And the latest NEC requirments now have 4 wire on large appliances, previously they used nuetral as chassis ground (3 wire) now they require neutral and earth ground , earth on the chassis, not tied to nuetral at the appliance.