Anti-Cables

Daygloworange · « **Reply #41 on:** 18 Dec 2006, 05:37 am »

Quote from: tomjtx on 17 Dec 2006, 01:24 pm

Dayglo,
Very interesting post, thanks.

I have the same experience with scores as well. The brain hears more when it knows what to listen for.

I remember how much more I heard in a Bach Fugue that I played once I finished the course in 18th century counterpint.

It makes perfect sense to me that the microphones became more distinguishable after time.

This phenomena could shed light on the potential limitations of blind testing if it's the only criteria used to evaluate differences in components.

BTW where did you study music? Did you study conducting? Just curious if that what the score reading was from.
My degree is in Clasical guitar

Tom

tomjtx,

I studied classical privately with a concert violinist for many years during my teens, then studied in college in Quebec ( it's called CEGEP there). The courses were full immersion, we studied music theory, composition, 1st and secondary instruments ( mine was classical guitar, and piano ), I also took a jazz workshop. We had some other interesting classes, music kinesiology, music history. The class where we did" the listen with scores "thing was called music appreciation. It was very cool. They had a great program there, the atmosphere was very cool. During that time I got to see a lot of concerts, we had a great auditorium there that had concerts all the time.

Yeah, the Bach stuff is very involved. He always has a lot of counterpoint going on. The Bach Inventions are really cool to listen to, and have a lot of counterpoint going on.

There is a lot more to the phenomenon of break in than the properties of wires. It's got a lot to do with human perception. That's what I try to suggest to people. It doesn't mean some people are incapable of hearing it. It's just once your exposed to it properly, then you identify it more easily, and more consistently. When I first started recording many years ago, I couldn't hear differences in certain things. I don't think I could hear the subtle differences in microphones today as well as I could when I lived and breathed recording and performing. Your example of sight singing is a great one.

I believe what you mention regarding the inconsistencies in DBT, or ABX is very true. I think there are limitations due to human error for any number of reasons. I don't see it being worth anyones while to do an exhaustive study, so I think the debate will always exist.

There are a lot of electrical engineer types who have posted data on the inductance, capacitance and resistance figures which vary wildly from cable to cable. So scientifically and measurably there are differences. But then people say they don't make a sonic difference. To me, it doesn't add up. Then all amplifiers should sound the same, all drivers should sound the same. All microphones should sound the same, blah, blah, blah....

This whole topic for me is just one of general curiosity, I don't obsess about it. I have simple OFC speaker cables, nothing esoteric. I have some new IC's on a trial period, I will for the sake of argument, let them run for a few weeks in my system and compare them to my old ones, as well as a pair of well known IC's that a buddy has. I will choose what I like, then that's it. I might try some speaker cable stuff, but will not go crazy with it either.

I will be auditioning a bunch of amps in the near future and see if there is something that I might like a lot better than what I have now. I'm hoping that it won't be something that will require me to endlessly experiment with tube rolling and all that stuff. If I find something that's 9/10's of such a system but is solid state, and/or is just plug in and play, that's what I'll go with. I couldn't be bothered to endlessly pursue that last 1/10th.

Room treatment for me is going to be an area that I will spend a considerable amount of time and effort on. That is where I have found the largest gains to be found in sound reproduction quality.

Cheers

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #42 on:** 18 Dec 2006, 05:59 am »

Quote from: bpape on 17 Dec 2006, 01:30 pm

Paul.

Steve K could give you much more detail as it's his system that I've heard them in. The amps just seem much more 'relaxed' and have a better controlled bottom end with amps seeing a 16 ohm load.

Bryan

Actually, I did some more research and now think they are probably worth a try for me with my SETs and 4-6ohm speakers. I learned a good deal from the site's FAQ and white paper.

tomjtx · « **Reply #43 on:** 18 Dec 2006, 01:01 pm »

Dayglow,

I have done a lot of room treatment and it makes a very big difference

If you don't mind a suggestion I found treating thr ceiling/wall tri-corners make the most difference.

oops, I forgot your a recording engineer, I should be asking your advice

gooberdude · « **Reply #44 on:** 19 Dec 2006, 03:47 pm »

Hey Tomjtx,

i twisted up my anti-cables and there is a difference with how the higher frequencies come across, say from 2khz and up...plus the bass stayed the same. I tried this set-up 2 years ago after the initial purchase but with a resistor based passive pre, and experienced difft results. the sound is more pleasing now - smooother.

the anti-cables are easier to deal with ergonomically as a twisted pair. I don't have to be concerned with their installation (just keep 'em off the carpet) and the physical ringinginginging has been reduced due to the increased mass of the pair.

i recently purchased a TVC preamp which seems to be sensitive to cable types. Speltz and Mapleshade cables sound much better than thick Belden wire based stuff (Heartland cables).

BEST $50 SPEAKER CABLE EVER

matt

smargo · « **Reply #45 on:** 19 Dec 2006, 06:06 pm »

Quote from: gooberdude on 19 Dec 2006, 03:47 pm

Hey Tomjtx,

i twisted up my anti-cables and there is a difference with how the higher frequencies come across, say from 2khz and up...plus the bass stayed the same. I tried this set-up 2 years ago after the initial purchase but with a resistor based passive pre, and experienced difft results. the sound is more pleasing now - smooother.

the anti-cables are easier to deal with ergonomically as a twisted pair. I don't have to be concerned with their installation (just keep 'em off the carpet) and the physical ringinginginging has been reduced due to the increased mass of the pair.

i recently purchased a TVC preamp which seems to be sensitive to cable types. Speltz and Mapleshade cables sound much better than thick Belden wire based stuff (Heartland cables).

BEST $50 SPEAKER CABLE EVER

matt

Ditto about the $50 cable - truly a product that works!!! - no bullshit

regards,
smargo

gooberdude · « **Reply #46 on:** 19 Dec 2006, 06:22 pm »

a few weeks back i made banana plugs outta the bare anti-cable ends...i was really impressed then. twisting the pair is leaving me with an even bigger smile on my face though!

I'm wondering if using 2 difft gauge anti-cable runs and making them up like the anti-IC's would be beneficial?? the positive would be thicker than the negative of course... i didn't realize the design of the anti-IC's addresses RF/EM issues - i'll assume the sp cables could benefit as well.

i have an anti-IC pair that's over a year old and one brand new. The positive cable is a few guages thicker on the new set but the negative run looks to be the same gauge.

i wonder if paul would make up some thinner gauge anti-cable to play with? aa
it would be easy to twist one cable around the negative run...

rollo · « **Reply #47 on:** 20 Dec 2006, 01:46 am »

Gooberdude,
You would have to call him directly for the silver IC's.You WILL NOT be disappointed.If you like clarity without edge or brightness and lightning fast transients well this is the one silver cable that delivers in spades.

P.S. must have silver Eichman plugs $200/ mtr.a bargin for this performance level
rollo

gooberdude · « **Reply #48 on:** 20 Dec 2006, 01:52 am »

Hey Rollo,

i'm following you around....

Did you get a silver IC from Promitheus?? Just wondering if there's a comparison.

i 'think' I like silver IC's, but both my anti-IC's are preferrable to the silver from nick so far.

where i live i may need some type of shielding though, i'm in a dense urban area.

matt

rollo · « **Reply #49 on:** 20 Dec 2006, 02:08 am »

Gooberdude,
Only have about 100HRS on Nicks cable.Prefer the COPPER anti so far.The ANTI silver is as I said in another leaugue Please understand that I am NOT a big fan of silver IC or SPRK cables.As a matter of fact this cable has none of the attributes associated with silver;thin bright,dry and overly detailed.
I'll let you know how Nicks' IC fares arter 200HRS.
rollo

jdaly · « **Reply #50 on:** 23 Dec 2006, 05:00 am »

I'm using anti jumpers (bananas) with audience maestro speaker cables (spades) with my Von Schweikert's. I just couldn't justify the cost of the audience jumpers and sent them back. This was before I had a chance to burn in the audience jumpers, but, oh well, I think I'll be just fine with these. As well as having some extra money in my pocket

I also have the anti speaker cables. Just haven't had a chance to do an honest comparison yet. But I was thinking about using them in a bi-wire config with the audience cables. Any thoughts on that?

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #51 on:** 23 Dec 2006, 03:43 pm »

To follow up, I am going to sell my WW Polaris ICs. I like the Anti-ICs better. As simple as that. They are a smidge faster and clearer throughout the band.

Anybody care to buy the WW ICs? They are, bar none, the finest ICs in the world. aa

anubisgrau · « **Reply #52 on:** 4 Jan 2007, 03:51 pm »

I'd appreciate your help with deciding should I try Anti-ICs and should I go silver or copper ones.

My system is very simple, I have a pair of active ATC 20 studio monitor type speakers that are an axis of my system sounding dominantly clear and revealing and slightly on a forward side. They are really neutral and so revealing that every imperfection upstream is spoiling a pleasure.

My current active preamp is Electrocompaniet EC4.7 a nice, musical, warmish sound with a huge control and even bigger soundstage and only one drawback - a dark character that can be mostly heard as a lack of HF extension.

Promitheus TVC is on the way to me from Malaysia and although I don't expect it to throw EC out of my system, I guess it will be equal to it, depending on my moods and music.

Right now my source is Thule CD150B player, relatively smooth and polite player. As any CDP it is imperfect but overall its main problem is a lack of excitement, otherwise it is rather unobtrusive player.

My current cables are VdH The Second throughout the system (i don't use speaker cables as my boxes are active). I like most of their performance - rounded, well defined deep bass, fluid and body of upper bass and mid, good soundstage. But the same as EC, it lacks ultimate extension and finesse in the HF.

Basically I need to keep a sort of warmth in the mids in order to prevent ATCs from sounding lean and dry (very often when fed with less than perfect source as mine), as well as liquidity and body that gives a pleasant weight and a good slam. What i need to do is to refine highs and extend them as much as possible, and also to try to lift a tad of dirt from the vocals (that could be something else outside of the system, like AC quality or similar, or a lack of better power cables - i'm working on that too).

So, the questions are:

- has anyone compared Anti-ICs to any VdH cable (and in particular The Second or Integration hybrid, very similar)

- can anyone comment on what would I get throwing anti-ICs between a CDP and a pre (single ended) as well as between a pre and powerpacks on my monitors (balanced).

- is there a particular recommendation where to use silver and where to use copper (between which compnonets)?

Last but not least, not sure if 30 days trial would work with me or not, I am based outside of the US so it might take much longer to get an impression and it might be just too expensive to send them back and forth

Sorry for being long. Looking forward to your comments.

Cheers Gordan

rollo · « **Reply #53 on:** 4 Jan 2007, 04:21 pm »

Gordan,
The copper IC will give you a different perspective than the silver.The copper is laid back compared to silver.The silver with Eichman silver give you speed transparency detail and about everything else you desire in a cable.The copper will give you all of above but with a more relaxed.
My opinion is based on listening to both in my system[CDP to PRE] and inanother[CDP to PRE to AMP].As everyone knows I'm NOT a BIG FAN of SILVER.However the anti-cable silver IC is making me reconsider it is I believe the best silver cable Ive heard.
Hope this helps.
rollo

anubisgrau · « **Reply #54 on:** 4 Jan 2007, 04:40 pm »

Quote from: rollo on 4 Jan 2007, 04:21 pm

Gordan,
The copper IC will give you a different perspective than the silver.The copper is laid back compared to silver.The silver with Eichman silver give you speed transparency detail and about everything else you desire in a cable.The copper will give you all of above but with a more relaxed.
My opinion is based on listening to both in my system[CDP to PRE] and inanother[CDP to PRE to AMP].As everyone knows I'm NOT a BIG FAN of SILVER.However the anti-cable silver IC is making me reconsider it is I believe the best silver cable Ive heard.
Hope this helps.
rollo

is your opinion on silver in general also based on experience with anti-ICs silver or with some other cables.

btw right now the cheapest silver anti-IC is $250 with RCAs. i guess it is with eichmann silver bullets but i am not sure.

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #55 on:** 5 Jan 2007, 03:21 am »

Quote from: smccull on 14 Dec 2006, 04:47 am

In fact, because I have more length than I really need, they're a jumbled mess on the carpet, stuff up under the speakers.

I read on ACs web site that it's OK to use different length runs for each spkr.

rollo · « **Reply #56 on:** 6 Jan 2007, 04:28 pm »

Quote from: anubisgrau on 4 Jan 2007, 04:40 pm

Quote from: rollo on 4 Jan 2007, 04:21 pm
Gordan,
The copper IC will give you a different perspective than the silver.The copper is laid back compared to silver.The silver with Eichman silver give you speed transparency detail and about everything else you desire in a cable.The copper will give you all of above but with a more relaxed.
My opinion is based on listening to both in my system[CDP to PRE] and inanother[CDP to PRE to AMP].As everyone knows I'm NOT a BIG FAN of SILVER.However the anti-cable silver IC is making me reconsider it is I believe the best silver cable Ive heard.
Hope this helps.
rollo

is your opinion on silver in general also based on experience with anti-ICs silver or with some other cables.

btw right now the cheapest silver anti-IC is $250 with RCAs. i guess it is with eichmann silver bullets but i am not sure.

My comments were based on my experience with Anti-Cables.Allother silver cable I've heard is missing the SOUL and EMOTIONAL imp[act of the music.If you prefer detail,and clarity as opposed to body and soul go for silver.Silver is very accurate and may give you too much of a good thing.
My advice would be order both cables one in copper one in silver both with matching Bullet RCA's.Then you can find the SYNGERGY with YOUR system.ALL IC's in my opinion are tone controls I havn't heard a so called neutral cable to date.
The only way is to try both
happy listening rollo

anubisgrau · « **Reply #57 on:** 6 Jan 2007, 11:37 pm »

rollo, considering your position with a hi-fi club, have you ever had a chance of hearing some better van den hul interconnects?

i am wondering how would something like integration hybrid or the second compare to anti-ICs?

Scotty · « **Reply #58 on:** 7 Jan 2007, 02:01 am »

rollo, you may hear a neutral cable and not recognize it because it reveals heretofore obscured system non-linearities which you were previously unaware of.
Not all cables are tone controls or bandaids for systems with problems.
Scotty

rollo · « **Reply #59 on:** 8 Jan 2007, 06:28 pm »

Scotty,
good point,however I feel that can be said with the insertion of any quality IC silver or copper.We have tried Nordst through RAdio shack basically with the same results Silver does NOT have the emotional impact or body and soul as copper and copper dosn't have the clarity,detail and speed of silver.
Now if we could get the benifits of both in one cable now were talking.There is NO BETTER CABLE[copper vs silver] just different presentations
We as a club do not have experience with VDH cables as he is reluctant to send any for our evaluation.
rollo