[Dan Banquer]

Since you have not been polite enough to answer my previous questions pertaining to what you have read about audio basics I see no further need to respond to your post.
Have a nice day.
         d.b.

I assume your question is addressed to me. I have read Robert Harley's "Complete Guide to High End Audio" which includes chapters on audio basics.

I mentioned much earlier that I am a layman. I'd have had no idea that Googling "Transistor lifetime expectancy" is what would be required to identify pertinent articles, which is why I requested your assistance. It has nothing to do with laziness.

Thank you for the links provided.

That was not pertaining to you. It was directed at Mr. Cat. My apologies for not quoting his post.
In any case I hope you take seriously my comments on grounding and negative feedback. I think if you roll up your sleeves and do a bit of investigation you may well find my comments most substantive.
             d.b.

[jneutron]

Sts9Fan/jneutron
It is not out of laziness that I propose a lockdown, it is to likely avoid the hysteria and theatrics that will in all likelihood become of this topic. 

We as moderators need to spend an inordinate amount of our (fully volunteer) time to monitor this fast moving discussion with 25 pages in 3 days..

That is specifically what I said. (this actually is not "fast moving", you should see some...)

..knowing full well there is no hope for substative and near universal agreement or 'answers' to the question originally posed...regarding 'burn-in'.

I do not concur.

I think it should be locked down, not borne from any laziness on my part or other Moderators, but because there is nothing worthwhile being gained from it's continued existence. And, with 98% certainty based on history, erupt into something less-than-civil in the future. .

Again, I do not concur.  I have burned in every type of semiconductor known to man (with the exception of silicon carbide), from 1n4148 dice  and 2n918's up to 3 inch diameter silicon diodes and half inch square IR fets....have tested pre and post, have watched parametric drift, bathtub failures, process based drift, die attach drift, so I am well aware of burn in.

I also know a tad about human hearing capabilities and limitations.  That localization yada yada..and how it shifts with time.

jneutron, you have the right to disagree (in fact, it's healthy), but I have an equal right to disagree with you.  I'm a reasonably fair and impartial guy by nature - if I'm actually advocating a lock down, it's not due to any inherent laziness..

As I said, I did not like the implication (of another poster) that it was out of lazyness.  I said it was due to the historical results of previous threads on this topic, and the amount of time required of the moderators.  So you are not disagreeing with me.  (weird, I defend your position, you disagree with me...is this how this forum woiks???)

Cheers, John

[jneutron]

""..........you find my comments most substantive.""
             d.b.

Well, maybe not all of them...""full moon""??

he he..

Cheers, John

[Dan Banquer]

""..........you find my comments most substantive.""
             d.b.

Well, maybe not all of them...""full moon""??

he he..

Cheers, John

I wish they had an Icon for Full Moon.
             d.b.

[warnerwh]

Dan, as an engineer, how do you possibly think you could have anything to contribute to a discussion like this? \

If you had a degree psychiatry I could see it.

This discussion has been the same as every other one like it. No firm conclusions. As I said earlier if it can even be argued that it exists or not it's probably best to concentrate on other areas until they are perfected like those invisible sound waves bouncing around a room and have a huge effect on the sound. Heck moving your head 1" can make more difference than changing amps.

Locking this thread would accomplish more than this thread will. As Chair Guy pointed out emotions will start to spill over and it will end up being locked anyway.

I'd like to argue about the best way to minimize comb filtering myself from start to finish right to my eardrum.

[Dan Banquer]

I think if folks had a grasp of what jneutron and occaisonally myself are talking about one might think twice before locking this thread.
                  d.b.

Dan, as an engineer, how do you possibly think you could have anything to contribute to a discussion like this? \

If you had a degree psychiatry I could see it.

This discussion has been the same as every other one like it. No firm conclusions. As I said earlier if it can even be argued that it exists or not it's probably best to concentrate on other areas until they are perfected like those invisible sound waves bouncing around a room and have a huge effect on the sound. Heck moving your head 1" can make more difference than changing amps.

Locking this thread would accomplish more than this thread will. As Chair Guy pointed out emotions will start to spill over and it will end up being locked anyway.

I'd like to argue about the best way to minimize comb filtering myself from start to finish right to my eardrum.

[jneutron]

like those invisible sound waves

Hey, they're invisible...therefore, they don't exist. (don't mess wit my head, will ya?

Locking this thread would accomplish more than this thread will. As Chair Guy pointed out emotions will start to spill over and it will end up being locked anyway.

Well, so far, all I've seen is people like you (and the moderator)saying that "emotions will start to spill".

I also see people starting threads with the phrase "please don't flame me"...What the heck is goin on in this forum????

This thread can go as far as the respondents wish.  That can proceed beyond current state of the art (not a stretch in my opinion), or it could be over.  Let the posters decide.  Censure is ugly. That is why I disagree with chair-man.  Unfortunately, he is the one who has to contend with the flames (assuming flames are to be found), so while I would disagree with the decision to lock, I would support it should it happen.

Personally, I cringe at the current SOTA in audio. If only it were so "loose" with my work, where failure can be "rather" expensive (thankfully not life or death).

That is why I like these type of "thinking" threads.  Lots of food for thought.

I'd like to argue about the best way to minimize comb filtering myself from start to finish right to my eardrum.

Sigh...comb filtering..sheesh.

How we hear is so much more complex.  "Comb filtering" as a result of two spherical vector sources...too simplistic.

Worry about direction as well as time..that is important in the way we perceive source imaging.  The real issue is one of mapping from the source to the objective image, the localization parameters required, the diffraction transfer function. and the image stability equations..sheesh, not difficult stuff..trivial, in fact.




The hard stuff?

Civility in light of opposing viewpoints..

Cheers, John

[Daygloworange]

Gentlemen,

I've been away from my computer all day. I've just read the posts since my last one. Very cool stuff. Thanks jneutron , Dan Banquer and anyone who I may have missed. I am not an EE, but with a loosely basic knowledge of electronics. So when some one posts with really cool info, it's a treat.

That's why I do like these threads, there are very positive and worthwile contributions that are of value to people like myself. I know that there are others that could contribute as well, but are hesitant. I have an inquisitive nature, and love to hear others with more experience in a topic share their findings.

I hope the thread doesn't get locked, but perhaps we could move it somewhere, or suggest a new thread topic that could be a place where people could post links that could be of interest to those who would be interested in the scientific findings that exist out there.

Glad to see people getting along and respecting each other.

Cheers

[AJinFLA]

Worry about direction as well as time..that is important in the way we perceive source imaging.  The real issue is one of mapping from the source to the objective image, the localization parameters required, the diffraction transfer function. and the image stability equations..sheesh, not difficult stuff..trivial, in fact.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll see when you put that DSP block contraption in a real room.

cheers,

AJ

[TheChairGuy]

I think if folks had a grasp of what jneutron and occaisonally myself are talking about one might think twice before locking this thread.
                  d.b.

This is yet further reason to lock it down.  If a topic pertains only to a geeky few, than it doesn't belong in Audio Central...it belongs in The Lab; where you technophiles can dither, romp and play. I'd like to hear from PhilNYC before deciding...it's his topic, he's always shown himself to be a rather levelheaded sort and I respect his advice on this.

So, to most in Audio Central, this topic is 'over our limited understanding'  and, to a rare few, it's remarkably technical twaddle and dither 

[Daygloworange]

If something were to start in The Lab I think that would be cool. I'd check it out. Perhaps that is really the best idea.

Cheers

[Occam]

If something were to start in The Lab I think that would be cool. I'd check it out. Perhaps that is really the best idea.
Cheers

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!! PLEASE NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

TIA,
Paul, Moderator of da Lab Circle

[Daygloworange]

 I thought you had the mucho tweekus buggus already??

Cheers

[Gordy]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!! PLEASE NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Even if it's backed up with ABX proof? 

[Canyoneagle]

I agree with the idea of putting this topic in a "techie" area.  I've been observing it for the last few days, and I enjoy the discussion, as long as it stays civil.
I have very little background in the electrical engineering side of this (my university training is in civil engineering and project management), so I've enjoyed seeing the pure engineering perspective as well as that of the experiential.
For me, music is the connection that I need in the midst of this paradox of modern life, and the EXPERIENCE is paramount to my needs.

This thread has provided me with a great deal of information (as well as entertainment), and it would be a shame to kill it totally, since it has remained (for the most part) civil.

I can understand the very real bandwith/storage concerns of a moderator, especially considering the history of such a topic.

However, I have experienced both sides of the fence, and enjoy the opportunity to see what surfaces in an "unreconcilable" topic.

Perhaps, in a more technical place, or in another place (the IGWB eventually, I'm sure) this thread will provide the diversity of opinion/experience that many enjoy on these forums.

In my relatively limited exposure to AC, I have seen a refreshing openness in the majority of the members, and have found manufacturers with whom I resonate after having spent many years as a "gearhead".

A topic such as "burn in" has always been a hot button issue, but is far more appropriate in an audio discussion site than religion and politics (although there is a connection with personal alignment that trancends any particular interest).

So, I've enjoyed watching this thread over the last few days.

Will it change my outlook or my choices?
Not likely.

My .02 is to keep this alive as long as it stays civil and provides the opportunity for people to peel the onion for themselves (i.e. useful links, insightful commentary, etc).

Warmly,
Michael

[avahifi]

I have read a whole lot of posts here.  Again I would refer you all to my earlier post noting that when we have (rarely) replaced the whole circuit board on one channel of an older unit for repair reasons, we have never had a single bit of feedback from the client that one channel sounded different from the other, even when one channel was years old, and the other all new, but of the same design.

What does this mean?

I think it means that since the client was not expecting anything other than a properly working amplifier, and since the sound was essentially the same as before, and as expected, there was no subjective reason for the client to be critical about listening for tiny differences, if any.  And, the client was already used to the sound of the equipment, nothing new to "learn" subjectively.

With a new piece of equipment, there is much subjective "learning" to do.  The overall sonic presentation may be wildly different than what it replaced.  There are many many new things to hear, to understand, to listen to.  You simply do not learn it all at once.  And, you may actually dislike something new and much better if you were used to listening to something really inaccurate.  For example, the person here who was disappointed with the excellent Ellis 1801 speakers because the bass performance was not as "good" as a fat, boomey, muddy set of old stock B&W 640s.  We, by the way, published a cure for the 640s years ago in Audio Basics.  In that thread, however, it appears that the virtues of the 1801s slowly sank in.  I suspect very strongly that the speaker did not "burn in" but the perception of the 1801s was burned into the users appreciation of them.

I am quite sure that electronics does not require any significant burn in time.  Yes, vacuum tubes do change slightly during the first few hours of use, but in our experience, not enough to affect bias settings done after one half hour of warm up.  High voltage coupling capacitors in tube circuits will need several minutes to form up completely, until then there will be slight DC leakage, contributing to sometimes noisy control operation in the first few minutes of play. And, of course, some circuit designs are only marginally stable, and may take hours to reach thermal equilibrium.  I would suggest that is not very satisfactory design.

I do suggest that if a new piece of equipment is really better, you will hear it, as Jim Winey of Magnepan once told me, in the first three notes.  The rest comes slower though, your appreciation of all the good things the new piece is doing (and of all the bad things it is not doing) will come over many hours of listening.  The equipment is not changing, your appreciation of it is. I would suggest too that a major virtue of a "better" component is that it does not play what is not there.

Anyway, it matters not whether the equipment is burning in, or your ears are, simply enjoy the music.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[Daygloworange]

I can't argue that theory. I've definitely suspected that, that might actually be a possible/probable explanation.

To me, it's very similar to when I would buy a new CD, often times because I really liked 1 track that I heard on the radio. Upon buying it and listening to the entire CD, I would sometimes think the rest of it was terrible to the point of being felt ripped off. Then after playing it from time to time over weeks, months, I would actually start to think that I liked a few more tracks, sometimes I found that I really, really thought some of the other tracks were in fact, really great.

It's happened lots of times. So I think that squares with your comments Frank, in regards to human perception.

I listen to old Van Halen, stuff I grew up with as a kid, and while I still have fond memories, find it of mediocre musical content. By contrast other stuff I liked as a kid fares better than that, and fares better than my opinion of it at the time.

Cheers

[warnerwh]

I'm curious if anybody else majored in psyche in college? The reason I bring this up is because you learn how the human mind is in an almost hypnotic state much of the time. This of course is why the placebo effect can work well. I'd suspect at least some of the time that the placebo effect is what happened.

Another theory I have is that when two components are compared that unless you sit down and your ears are in the exact same spot you will hear a difference due to comb filtering. This happens in all rooms. Be one inch off and the amplitude response at your new listening position can easily be several db above or below at points that it wasn't in the first listening position.  This one has always bothered me as I never measured my head to the walls while doing comparisons but had been aware of it's existence. Too much trouble I guess.

Now that I've said that don't get the impression I don't think cables can't affect the sound because I've had loaned to me several cables at once ranging from cheap to Kimber KCAG which I think is 300 a meter. Only thing was I couldn't hear a difference between the Kimber and the cheap Monster but could with a Cardas cable. For whatever reason, the Cardas was very thick, I could hear a difference during multiple tests.

I've never heard a cable change over time though. Over the past couple of years I've made a few speaker cables and IC's and haven't noticed a difference to speak of any burn in. This using everything from cheap copper twinlead to twisted silver plated wire with teflon insulation. IC's have been made using cheap mike cable similar to coax to silver plated and teflon insulated twisted wire that even has a silver plated 95% shield. If any of these multiple cables changed much it wasn't enough to worry about because all it did had been to change very subtly or I would have noticed. My mood changes the sound more.

[Daygloworange]

I majored in music in college, but also studied sociology. Great experience. A lot of human behaviourism stuff. Then was fascinated with criminal pathology and paranormal.

When it comes to placebo, conscious and semi conscious states it's fascinating.

When I would correlate that with certain aspects of things I was learning in music studies, it was a Pandora's box. We talked a lot about human perceptions, there are a lot of neat phenomenon. Ghost notes, grace notes, Sheppard's tones, 24 note rows.....We had music appreciation workshops that were really cool. When you listen to an orchestral work, but you have the conductor's score to sight read along with while listening was a neat experience. You would learn about all the subliminal things that are being played that you never noticed. You see all this business going on in the 2nd violins and never noticed it before, but now that it's there in front of you, you wonder how you could have missed it entirely.

There is a lot on the topic of human perception that plays into the experience when we are intently listening to 2 channel audio. It was even difficult to get into it that heavy. It can be overwhelming. As someone said earlier in this thread, there are only so many hours in a day, and only so many things you can excel at....

But yes, there is a lot that can be learned, and can aid in the enjoyment of the musical experience. Personally, I'd been frequenting AudioCircle as just a guest for about a year or so before registering, and along with upgrading parts of my system ( which is being totally overhauled, and will be front to back, components from AudioCircle Manufacturers and modders BTW) the knowledge, advice, and guidance has added tremendously to my leisure  enjoyment of listening to music.

Despite everything I have learned and continue to learn, I don't know that I'll ever personally ever be able to conclude anything as pertains to audio or music.

But everday I learn something new, and I really value that.

I love this place. AudioCircle rocks! 

Cheers

[warnerwh]

I'm glad you like it here. It's my home on the internet. After a while you learn about the other personalities just like meeting real people.

We also have a good group of people with high integrity here.  Being respectful of others thoughts/feelings can be seen in this thread.

I've also learned alot from others on this forum. The knowledge base here is excellent and add our manufacturers and you have an outstanding knowledge base that is varied but accurate.

If you're rebuilding your system you really should consider a speaker from one of the manufacturers here. Performance per dollar by our manufacturers is far superior to the likes of B&W and Thiel or Vandersteen type names.  Same with electronics or accessories this has to have the best group of manufacturers on the internet, at least as far as I know and I've spent alot of time on the net starting with my first modem which was a 2400 baud relic.