[Dan Banquer]

But heck; what do I know, I'm just another stupid ignorant objectivist.
                      d.b.

touchy, touchy, touchy!   

Hey Dan, since you build gear, let me ask you this:
Do different brands of caps with identical specs/measurement/numbers ever sound different to you?

If so, how do you explain it?

If not, would you just choose the cheapest one?

PS:  you are being extreme in your arguement.  Of course you need scientific devices and measurements to build audio gear.   I have never said anything to the contrary, or denied the importance of science in general.  You are misrepresenting my point of view, and  anyone who reads my posts will see that.

I guess you missed the post on this thread on all the different specs that caps have. Do you think a re-read of that post is in order?
                       d.b.
                             

[toobluvr]

Mr. Banquer, I read your post about cap specs. It doesn't address the question posed about whether or not you hear a difference among them. Perhaps I missed where you comment on the sonics?

Same here...

So I'm still confused.
Should we take the tap dance to mean that all new caps sound the same...provided of course, the numbers match?

Damn!  I've been wasting my time on this upgrade path!     

[JohninCR]

The first salesman of the crappy system who came up with the gimmick of
"burn-in is required before you get to optimum sound" should be publicly flogged
along with the guy who believed it and passed it on after he wasn't satisfied
the first day.  Just look at what this has grown into.  No other electrical item
in the world needs burn-in (and would be thought faulty if something did change
early in its life), yet with audio everything from cables to wall sockets always
gets better and never worse after the first hundreds of hours of use.  Can't you
guys see just how ludicrous that is?

I used to think maybe there's something to this, even though I never heard it,
since there are some people I respect saying the same thing.  Being curious by
nature, I had to find out for myself and with the help of some friends did as
scientific a test as we could come up with.  The results were zilch, zip, nada
even though I went into it thinking there would be at least something or a difficult
to statistically confirm "I think so".  Since then, there's been a perfectly valid
explanation for everything I hear.

[totoro]

The main problem is that in the absence of an objective standard snake oil and scams tend to thrive.   Whenever something cannot be quantified it opens up the field for snake-oil and those less savory individuals and companies willing to exploit people.   It opens up wild claims with little to support them.    That is pretty much the atmosphere we have in high-end audio these days.    That type of atmosphere doesn't lend itself to improving products.   It doesn't lend itself to the advancement of the art

The flip side to that is that if there was nobody to question the status quo we would all be listening to wax cylinders through a horn.

But seriously, If it weren't for people that for which, good is not good enough, we wouldn't have advancement and research and innovation. It takes a certain type of person that doesn't just stop because someone said there is nothing beyond. There is always so much more to investigate.

Again, another flipside to your comments would be that some people argue in order to simply discredit others who are marketing something else, and try to pass them off as charlatans.

Cheers

And if we were still believing in "common sense" over science, we'd still be in the Middle Ages, with no electronic audio equipment at all.

[Dan Banquer]

Do you understand what those caps specs mean and what they tell anyone who is into engineering? Do you understand that those specs will tell you what you need to know for a given application? Do you realize that specs such as ESR are crucial when doing any kind of filtering such as crossovers? or even active filters. How about voltage spec's: do you think they might be important when it comes to power supplies? do you think a nominal and surge rating are important? Film caps generally have some kind of seal to them. Do you think that leak rates might indicate their life span? Do you think that any of these spec's will tell you just how something will "sound" or just work correctly for the given application?
Want to design and build a reliable product? Think about what I have posted here.
As I said in an earlier post. I listen and to enjoy the stuff I've done over the past 15 years. It's still here with me and still working just fine.
This is my last post that will respond to you. It appears you read my posts rather selectively, and I do not have the time or patience to respond further in any kind of civilized manner.
Have a nice day;
           d.b.

[toobluvr]

Do you understand what those caps specs mean and what they tell anyone who is into engineering? Do you understand that those specs will tell you what you need to know for a given application? Do you realize that specs such as ESR are crucial when doing any kind of filtering such as crossovers? or even active filters. How about voltage spec's: do you think they might be important when it comes to power supplies? do you think a nominal and surge rating are important? Film caps generally have some kind of seal to them. Do you think that leak rates might indicate their life span? Do you think that any of these spec's will tell you just how something will "sound" or just work correctly for the given application?
Want to design and build a reliable product? Think about what I have posted here.
As I said in an earlier post. I listen and to enjoy the stuff I've done over the past 15 years. It's still here with me and still working just fine.
This is my last post that will respond to you. It appears you read my posts rather selectively, and I do not have the time or patience to respond further in any kind of civilized manner.
Have a nice day;
           d.b.

This is a roundabout tangent that is waaaay beyond me.
I asked a simple question.
It was direct, without deception, and should be quite easy to answer.
Why not do so?
I have absolutely no idea what you are on about.

[Daygloworange]

I used to think maybe there's something to this, even though I never heard it,
since there are some people I respect saying the same thing.  Being curious by
nature, I had to find out for myself and with the help of some friends did as
scientific a test as we could come up with.  The results were zilch, zip, nada
even though I went into it thinking there would be at least something or a difficult
to statistically confirm "I think so".  Since then, there's been a perfectly valid
explanation for everything I hear.

JohninCR,

You've given us your take on burn in. Cool. Your answer is no. I got it. And I appreciate it. The original poster was curious as to what non-believers. But he also asked that this not turn into a flame war.

Then why the first paragraph in your post? It was respectfully requested to not incite a flame war. I'm enjoying this thread, and all the contributions to it, even yours, but I could do without the comments of whether or not any of this is absurd.

Cool?

Cheers

[bprice2]

Let's all get drunk and talk about politics and religion!

[toobluvr]

Let's all get drunk and talk about politics and religion!

better yet....
wimmins...bring on the wimmins!     

[Daygloworange]

Example:  Do you all remember the post on the RWA site stating how wonderful the Signature 30 sounded right out of the box?  My experience was not theirs.  Out of the box, my Sig 30 sounded like a horizontal move.  I was actually depressed for the first few hours of listening.  I heard the same harsh brightness I was experiencing on my previous amp.  However, the bass was definitely better.

Things changed after about 10 hours.  The brightness definitely had mellowed, but the bass kept changing.  I know this b/c, in the beginning, to pull good bass I had to turn my sub up to a level I'd never had it before.  Keeping the amp running all day with TV or radio for burn-in, I would listen at the end of the day and the bass had become overbearing, so I would turn it down.  This happened everyday until I reached level 4 on the sub volume.  This is where it has stayed after having started out at level 6.

What about your SB3 and your speakers? What do you feel the changes were in sound quality?What order did you replace items?

Cheers

[Dan Banquer]

"This is a roundabout tangent that is waaaay beyond me.
I asked a simple question.
It was direct, without deception, and should be quite easy to answer.
Why not do so?
I have absolutely no idea what you are on about."

I use Wima and Roederstein Film caps interchangeably in the circuits I have designed. They spec very close to the same and believe it or not they actually sound the same. Now if you do all of the measurements I outlined in the previous post and all of those measurements are the same you will have the same sound of two different brands of caps as you call it. Quite frankly, I suspect you may have never have either measured or investigated at length on just what capacitor spec's mean.

[Daygloworange]

Dan,

We had a tube amp manufacturer speak at our local get together recently. He uses horizontal sweep tubes from the television industry as opposed to the more ubiquitous ones found in 2 channel audio.

His feelings were that the majority of a particular amps sound was more about the circuit design than the actual brands of components. ( I think he felt that it was about 80% to do with design ) On the topic of tube rolling, his feelings were that it was not so much this brand or that brand, but the minute tolerance differentials in the physical manufacture that accounted for the difference in sound. Thereby making it a hit and miss game that had little if anything to do with brands.

He however, has transformers made to his specs, and I'm not sure what else he might have stated.

Do you have similar feelings then? That it's not the actual components, but the circuit design?

Cheers

[Dan Banquer]

Not exactly: but then again you have to account for what people consider good components. I use only Motorola parts when it comes to discreet bipolar circuitry, and there are very valid and technical reasons for that. He is correct about the basic design, but the basic design in order to fulfill it's theoretical potential must be implemented correctly and that's where the right parts in the right place come into play.
I could go off on a rather technical  tangent here but I will stop here.
Just in case anyone forgot this thread used to be about wire burn-in. Do you think by now it should be called something else?
              d.b.

[zybar]

Just in case anyone forgot this thread used to be about wire burn-in. Do you think by now it should be called something else?
              d.b.

How about "An exercise in futility?"



George

[maxwalrath]

The odds of me reading the 8 pages that have been posted since yesterday when I last saw it: zero. 

When you guys figure out if burn in exists, could someone post the answer?

[Daygloworange]

What are you trying to say Zybar?  

Cheers

[bprice2]

What about your SB3 and your speakers? What do you feel the changes were in sound quality?What order did you replace items?

Good question.  Man, you wanna talk about bassackward?  I had the sb3 playing to a NAD HT receiver and out to a pair of PSB speakers.  I started upgrading my source first (that's the bassackward part).  Wayne did a digital/analog mod and his Rev1 PS w/ Jensens.  I heard no effects from burn-in using the digital outs.  The analog outs were a completely different story.  The word I would use is grungy.  My understanding is that the Blackgates he uses on the analog mod need burn-in.  I'd say it was a good two months before I could tell that the analog mod had surpassed the digital and when this happened, man, was it good.

Next I bought a pair of Omega Super 3 Bi-poles NIB from our fellow ACer, Maxwalrath.  When I first heard the clarity from these speakers I almost cried from joy.  Then I heard that first mid/high and almost cried from the splitting in my head.  After several weeks, I could tell the mid/high diamond through the skull started to tame.  With this speaker, burn-in probably has more to do with mechanical burn-in of the the Fostex drivers than circuitry...I guess.  After realizing that the Omegas were not designed for an amp like the NAD HT, I came to the conclusion that I "needed" the RWA Sig 30.  It helped quite a bit. 

When bright strikes, I no like.  That's why I truly think burn-in in some equipment is real.  I can't tolerate overly bright sounds.  That's also why I'm so interested in Louis's new hemp drivers.

Did I answer your question?

[zybar]

The odds of me reading the 8 pages that have been posted since yesterday when I last saw it: zero. 

When you guys figure out if burn in exists, could someone post the answer?

I think it is safe to say "Burn OUT" exists!   

George

[Daygloworange]

The odds of me reading the 8 pages that have been posted since yesterday when I last saw it: zero. 

When you guys figure out if burn in exists, could someone post the answer?

The odds of someone remembering to do that are.........about the same.

Cheers

[Daygloworange]

Did I answer your question?

Yup. I'm getting a Bolder analog modded SB3, so I'm curious. I'll listen to it for a bit, then I'm lending it to a buddy for a month or so. So I'll see what I hear.

I also want to try the Sig30, but I want to establish the SB thing first. I don't want to make all the changes at once.

Were your speakers used? If so, how many hours on them?

Cheers