[27ph]

I finally finished the speakers and have listened to them for a couple of
evenings (only a few hours).

Compared to my old speakers (B&W DM640) the (lower?) midbass sounds a little
thin. If for example I play some Stevie Wonder, I am used to hear that rich
keyboard background that sort of envelopes everything. It is still there but
not as pronounced. Voices also sound a tad higher pitched on some
recordings. Some things they do very well, but with things like complicated rock
they tend to shrill a bit on the guitars when I crank it up.

My mom came by and she said immediately that she liked the old ones better and that
these sounded (waved her hands in the air), I guess she meant airy.

(The DM640 is a three-way with two 8" crossing over at 300 Hz and a 6½" up to 3000 Hz. It is known to
produce A LOT of bass. Some people found it too rich when it came out.)

Of course the 1801s have obvious qualities in other areas, but initially I
am feeling that something is "missing" like there is a hole in the sound.

vH pH

[warnerwh]

Different speakers will act different in various rooms. I'd try different speaker/listener positions. Try moving them closer to walls and change the toe in from straight forward to crossfiring in front of you.

This is the best tweak there is and one speaker design will sound best in one position while another may sound awful in that same position. Move the speaker that doesn't sound so good into a different position and/or move your listening position and the sound will change sometimes quite alot. It will change though at least some.

New speakers also need a little time to break in. I've no knowledge of these but saw your post on the recent replies board so don't know how much time they need. I can guarantee you though it's at least 50 hours. My Vmps RM 40's took at least 2 months and continued to refine for a year. This isn't my imagination as I've seen other people say the exact same thing with our speakers.

Anyway please try different position with your speakers and yourself. Then let them play for at least 2 weeks as much as possible. This is my first post in this forum as I don't know anything about Ellis speakers other than alot of people have really liked them. After being in the hobby for 33 years I'm confident what I've suggested should be pretty accurate with any speaker, well maybe not a speaker in a TV

[gitarretyp]

I agree with warner. Try different positions (closer to walls will bring in more midbass) and toe-ins (this one can be drastic depending on the design of the speaker). Also, you should live with them for a couple of weeks. After a few weeks of listening to the 1801s, switch back to the B&W and see if your opinion of the B&Ws has changed. You may have become used to an overly warm presentation and the presumably more neutral presentation of the 1801s sounds thin/bright to you. Also, if you've tailored your system to warm speakers, you may have chosen electronics that lean to the bright side or neutral.

[27ph]

The thing is that some things do sound terrific. I tried some Patricia Barber (jazz, but not too "jazzy") and that sounded great. Then some more funky stuff (danish, you wouldn't know it) the voices sounded very sharp and s-sounds seemed exaggerated. Moving on to some heavy, everything seemed to fall apart and the riffs sounded very shrill. I tried a lot of different things and many sounded a little thin.

I will try to move the speakers when I find the time. At a later stage I plan to cut the 1801s at 150 Hz approx (before the amp) and let my stereo subs handle the rest. That could clean up the midrange, since the driver wouldn't need to handle bass as well.

I also have a new amplifier coming in. At the moment I am using a pwm type from LC Audio.

Thank you for the suggestions so far.

vH pH

[obiwan11]

You quite sure you don't have the woofers wired out of phase?

[27ph]

You quite sure you don't have the woofers wired out of phase?

I can check, but there seems to be plenty of slam.

vH pH

[27ph]

Would be nice if it was just a wiring problem. I am pretty confident in the crossover, since I didn't assemble it my self 

vH pH

[avahifi]

I suspect you have become used to a big problem with the B&W Dm640, namely a big fat boomy bass response that is absent with the 1801s.  Download the December, 1990 issue of Audio Basics at our web site www.avahifi.com.  This details the simple fix for the problem.  Many of our clients back then were very pleased to make the fix and make the 640s perform a lot better.

Even fixed, the 640s are not going to equal the resolution and musicality of the 1801s which have much more modern and transparent drivers.  The old B&W plastic tweeter was nothing to write home about in comparison to modern designs.

http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/ab_pdf/ab1990-12.pdf

Regards.

Frank Van Alstine

[27ph]

I suspect you have become used to a big problem with the B&W Dm640, namely a big fat boomy bass response that is absent with the 1801s.  Download the December, 1990 issue of Audio Basics at our web site www.avahifi.com.  This details the simple fix for the problem.  Many of our clients back then were very pleased to make the fix and make the 640s perform a lot better.

Even fixed, the 640s are not going to equal the resolution and musicality of the 1801s which have much more modern and transparent drivers.  The old B&W plastic tweeter was nothing to write home about in comparison to modern designs.

http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/ab_pdf/ab1990-12.pdf

Regards.

Frank Van Alstine

I know your article but have never gotten around to tweaking my speakers.

I will try to move the speakers a bit and check the phase. Monday I have invited a second set of ears and we will do an A/B between the old and the new.

vH pH

[bayareajimmy]

You quite sure you don't have the woofers wired out of phase?

I am confused also, unlike the tweeters, there is no +/- markings on the woofers. anybody?

[Rocket]

Hi,

You haven't told us what components you are using in your system apart from a pwm lc audio amplifier.

Whilst i haven't heard the ellis audio 1801's i can imagine that they should sound excellent as they were designed by dennis murphy and use good quality drivers.  Patricia Barber's cd's whilst sounding quite good do tend to over pronounce sibilance.

Have you been exposed to high quality speakers in the past?

Regards

Rod

[27ph]

You quite sure you don't have the woofers wired out of phase?

I am confused also, unlike the tweeters, there is no +/- markings on the woofers. anybody?

If I remember correctly there is a little red dot at +. You can always test them with a small 1.5 V battery.

vH pH

[27ph]

Hi,

You haven't told us what components you are using in your system apart from a pwm lc audio amplifier.

Have you been exposed to high quality speakers in the past?

Preamp: sony TAE80ES, CD: Sony X77ES, speaker cables approx 11 AWG.

I have never owned anything except the 640's, but have been interested in hifi for a long time. The last high end speakers I listened to was at a full evening demo of the new Montana XPS a few weeks back.

I will report back on monday/tuesday with the results of the comparison. My friend who is joining me is not exactly a hifi-geek, but I value his opinion as a musician (he knows what things are supposed to sound like IRL).

vH pH

[PaulHilgeman]

Seas excel driers have the piece of fiberglass that supports the solder tabs/quick connects dyed red on the + side, and natural fiberglass on the - side.

-Paul

[Rocket]

Hi,

In the past i've found that good quality speakers need quality components in the rest of the system.  I'd look at a good quality preamp and dac and i think you'd be amazed at how much better your system will sound.

I remember using a cambridge audio amplifier and upgrading my speakers to focal kevlars and i was amazed at how much better the system sounded when i bought an n.e.w. a20.1 amplifier.

Good luck.

Regards

Rod

[friend2alldogs]

No offense to anyone here, but maybe the Ellis speakers (sounds like they were not in-home auditioned before building) are not right for the builder's room/music/gear/ears.

[warnerwh]

It seems that you're relatively new to the hobby and haven't had time to learn how to dial a system in. This may help quite alot. 

I suspect these speakers are much more accurate than your other speakers and you're going to find that you can hear much more accurately different recording qualities and tastes of the engineers. Be sure to use good recordings when you audition as poor recordings won't let the speakers do what they're capable of.

Judging by what Frank said the B&W's have a bass that is far from accurate.  You don't want to judge the Ellis compared to the B&W and feel the B&W is the more accurate speaker as I seriously doubt it.The bass in your B&W's will change the presentation of the midrange considerably from what it should sound like. Often a new piece of equipment may not sound correct because you're used to hearing your older piece. This can take some time to adjust to but often ends up in a much more enjoyable system.

A perfect case in point. You'll notice I'm a dealer now for VMPS speakers.  I'm on my third pair since 1996. My first pair, Tower II SE's, I bought unheard from a company just north of here.  I'd had great hopes of having this killer speaker. Hooked them up and my first thought was" What have I done?". They sounded truly awful. I mean it was like how could I spend this much money and have this happen. I was in shock.

Within a short period while learning that a system needs setup due to room acoustics I had them sounded better than I imagined they could have. It was 180 within a short period of time.  Then I was way happy for a long time. Fast forward to present, I now have VMPS RM 40's and know they're one of the best speakers and probably the best speaker in the price range for me. I'm super happy with the way these things sound. Btw they were the hardest speaker to dial in I've ever used. This is because of their potential to sound truly great but it took time.

If I'd have just taken the first pair back I'd have never owned another pair of VMPS speaker again.  Now I know without a doubt they're a must hear in any price range they're available being a true bargain and am happy to own the speakers I do.  I'm just saying your new speakers may just need to be set up better. They could possibly sound much better. I know room acoustics plays a much larger role in the sound than most people realize. Until you've dealt with acoustics much you can't imagine the huge difference acoustics can make.

Best of luck to you.

[fajimr]

I suspect these speakers are much more accurate than your other speakers and you're going to find that you can hear much more accurately different recording qualities and tastes of the engineers. Be sure to use good recordings when you audition as poor recordings won't let the speakers do what they're capable of. 

agreed.. I just had a friend over last night and she brought a few of her favorite CDs.  She knows my system pretty well and really appreciates the sound    She did however comment how bad one of her 'favorites' sounded on my system. she could hardly listen to it.  She agreed that it was not the fault of the system but rather the recording.

but you have lots of good ideas here.. good luck

[27ph]

No offense to anyone here, but maybe the Ellis speakers (sounds like they were not in-home auditioned before building) are not right for the builder's room/music/gear/ears.

No way to audition these in Denmark. A few people seemed to compare these to the B&W 805, which is a speaker I like (at least the old ones). That is part of the reason I went for this kit.

vH pH

[Russell Dawkins]

for the record, I don't care all that much for the B&W 805, at least the original one. I bought a pair when they first came out and thought the mid bass was a little boomy and inarticulate, pretty much like the Grado headphones (RS 1s, think - they were $1000 and had a polarity switch on the earpiece). Since I needed them both for mixing my recordings, I sold them both for the same reason - bass was pleasant and fun, but I don't think it was accurate. I replaced the Grados with Etymotic Research. Another world!

I would expect that the 1801s would be more accurate in the bass - in fact I have looked more than once at them for near field monitors, based on reactions I have read.