[hurdy_gurdyman]

What more can one say.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/ha_si_part2_e.html

Dave

[playntheblues]

Hurdy, your everywhere.  Did I tell you about my new speakers

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Hurdy, your everywhere.  Did I tell you about my new speakers

Seems like I've heard about them somewhere...

I'm not really everywhere. I only hang out at about five different forums (just the ones that count.)   Once in a great while I'll post on a forum I don't spend much time on, but not often.

Dave

[MJK]

A very good review.  But one thing is bothering me about the SI and the Augies.  I think that the market Darrel is after is the DIY crowd.  As a DIYer, when I look at a driver I want to find an accurate specification of the T/S parameters, an impedance curve, and an SPL plot.  I can't find any of that for the Hawthorne Audio drivers.  For the people who are not so much interested in doing the actual design work themselves, I can't find a recommended OB design to copy.  Bottom line, a DIYer is going to have to buy the drivers on faith and then measure them to do the design or cut and try an OB design for themselves.  I have to believe that lacking these two different sets of information would stop a lot of DIYers dead in their tracks.  When I look at the SI drivers the lack of the T/S information sends me to other driver options, but maybe that is just me.

Martin

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Martin,

The T/S specs are available. Here's from the Hawthorne Audio site:

Specifications:

    *
      15" full-range coaxial
    *
      Ideal for full-range, near field and monitoring applications in open baffle configuration
    *
      Heavy gauge pressed steel basket

    *
      2" voice coil
    *
      Power handling: 150 watts RMS
    *
      Impedance: 8 Ohms
    *
      System Sensitivity: 95.8 dB 1w/1m
    *
      Le: 0.07
    *
      Re: 5.77 Ohms
    *
      Qt: 0.91

   

    *
      Vas: 243.9 liters
    *
      XMax: 3.45mm
    *
      Fs: 41.8Hz
    *
      Magnet weight: 38ounces
    *
      Frequency range: 41.8-18k
    *
      Crossover network included



Silver Iris OB 15" Augie     
 

Specifications:

        *

          15" low frequency augmentation driver
        *

          Ideal for bass augmentation in open baffle and infinite baffle configurations
        *

          Heavy cast  basket
        *

          Kevlar Reinforced Paper Cone Body w/mass plug
        *

          Long excursion poly/cotton cloth surround
        *

          Large copper shorting ring on the vented core
        *

          Poly/cotton linear flat spider
        *

          Knurled binding posts

    *

      2.5" voice coil
    *

      Power handling: 225 watts RMS.
    *

      Impedance: 8 Ohms
    *

      SPL: 88.7 dB 1w/1m
    *

      Le:   0.81
    *

      Re:   5.69 Ohms

   

    *

      Qt:   0.92
    *

      Vas: 250.3 liters
    *

      Xmax: 7.15 mm
    *

      Fs: 27.0 Hz
    *

      Magnet weight: 67ounces

It's only the graphs that are not available.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that Darrel had origionally planned on building complete Duet and Solo speakers for his sales business. Selling raw drivers has little profit in them, especially at the price he asks for these. It was so many inquieries that convinced him to sell them separate. he really does like helping others achieve great sound at good prices.

BTW, there's not much money in XO building, either. 

Dave

[JLM]

Congrats to you and Darrel.

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Thanks Jeff.

Dave

[Bob in St. Louis]

Congrats to you and Darrel.

Dave, Darrel,..... I agree with JLM. Congrats 

Having a pair of both drivers, (very recently) I've got a good idea of what I'm in for.  aa
In the past month or so, I've received a pair of SI's, and pair of Augies, and a new surround receiver (with too many menus )
So, it'll be awhile until I get the sound that I want.

Martin, I'm a DIYer (by financial necessity), so I agree with most of what your saying. However some of us 'newbees' to the audio world may not fully understand what those graphs mean. I understand partially what I'm looking at, but in the grand scheme, people like me shouldn't be looking at graphs. The pretty pictures can tell a lie if your unfamiliar. Now somebody like you, sure, you NEED those to get to a better final result (baffle shape ect...), compared to multiple attempts by someone like me.
I've chosen the drivers I have based on a leap of faith. The people I respect in a few forums recommended these to me a while back. I have no regrets whatsoever. The OB sound from these is purely amazing. Tweeking the new system will take someone like awhile to 'fine tune', but it's a journey I'm willing to take.
Here's the page with specs:
http://hawthorneaudio.com/drivers.htm

Bob

[scorpion]

Martin, you are not alone with your thoughts. In many ways I think DIY-ers are much more concerned about information than the average customer, who just walk into the shop bying what looks best if it sounds good enough.

Now, I have heard the Silver Iris and it is good, I can assure. But that doesn't stop me from wanting to know all the TSP-values and the frequency response and the impedance curve. Especially since the main unit is not crossed over at all, but a big resonance taken down with a notch filter, and then the unit is falling off by its own. I certainly would like to know more about the crossover.
I would also want to know the sensitivity and frequency response of the tweeter unit to be able to judge by myself if the integration is at its best. All these things I can of course determine myself, by estimation and measuring on the different units, but it would be much more assuring if the manufacturer would give me his facts.

The reviews are excellent, and I would say not at all undeserved, but I think the manufacturer should give some firm practical information and advice both about active and passive use of his driver offerings on his website (and not just refer to the forum, where all the information about the crossover is, for instance). This is not at all said to be negative, but as I see it this (or these) speaker(s) at the moment are not explained enough either to the enthusiast DIY-er who knows a lot or to the DIY-er who just want to get a good speaker for a decent investment in money and time.

/Erling

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Here are a few more thoughts of my own and do not neccessarily reflect offical opinions or policies of Hawthorne Audio.

From what I know and partly from personal observation, Darrel made a consious decision to market the SI's to a music loving clientel who either don't know or don't care about the technical end of home stereo reproduction, but who are only interested in the music. Technical stuff outside of the basic T/S measurements on the website was a decision made to intentionally not confuse the novice. Origionally, DIY'ers were not the intended marketing target. They found the site anyway. It has become, by default, a DIY'ers paridise because of the potential and inexpensiveness of these drivers. The T/S measurements were posted because this is expected of any raw driver, and as a courtesy to the DIY crowd. I believe Darrel is still primarally most concered with keeping it simple and stressing the music over the technical end. Of course, on the forum there is open discussion of everything, including some very technical stuff. This is available to anyone who cares to look.

Remember, the SI's were origionally designed to be sold in finished speakers like the Solo and the Duet. Not many manufacturers of finished speakers give detailed technical details on such things as impedance, XO details and such except in a very general way, which isn't much help to a DIY'er anyway. The graphs you do get with most have been simulated and smoothed out so they don't realistically represent anything, anyway. Of course there are exceptions, but we must remember that each manufacturer has the right to market as they wish as long as there is no fraud involved.

Anyone who wishes to can look up someone with a pair of SI's, Coaxials or Augies, and measure all they wish of them and post anywhere they wish. There is no law against it that I'm aware of. I'm sure the graphs and measurements will hold up just fine.

Dave

[MJK]

Martin, I'm a DIYer (by financial necessity), so I agree with most of what your saying. However some of us 'newbees' to the audio world may not fully understand what those graphs mean. I understand partially what I'm looking at, but in the grand scheme, people like me shouldn't be looking at graphs. The pretty pictures can tell a lie if your unfamiliar. Now somebody like you, sure, you NEED those to get to a better final result (baffle shape ect...), compared to multiple attempts by someone like me.

Bob,

I understand what you are saying, but let me make the point a little bit differently.  Would you like to see somebody with a little more experience use the driver in a project that newer poeple could then copy or modify and enjoy the benefits of somebody else's design experience?  Or are you happy buying the driver on faith and doing the best you can do with it on your own?  You may come up with a great design or you may miss out on something.  Without the kind of information I listed, personally I would not take a chance on the drivers.  There are two many competing products to base a design around.  Before I purchase any driver I typically run some simulations and have a fairly firm design idea before the credit card is charged, that is the way I work but others might do it differently.  Right now the Silver Iris is a non starter for me.

Martin

[Rudolf]

Asking for a most complete set of informations for a driver is one thing.
Having it read properly is another.

I remember a discussion at the Visaton forum about the official publication of more detailed diagrams for the B200. It was the technical director of Visaton who voted against it. His argument: There is only a small group of DIYers who can properly read elaborated diagrams like distortion at different power levels or directional response on different sized baffles. The majority of his DIY customers will be frightened off the more a diagram departs from ruler flat.

He would not mind private measurements being published as such, but didn´t like them to appear on the official site. In a world of competitors prettifying their data to the utmost he would not risk commercial success in favor of maximal transparency. 
 
I do understand that argument. And I see it more as a debt of the advanced members of the DIY community to provide that more complete set of data (which should be more trustworthy too). We have seen it being done for the B200 in Germany. I believe it is only a matter of time that someone will do it here for the Hawthornes too.

Rudolf

[hurdy_gurdyman]

I do understand that argument. And I see it more as a debt of the advanced members of the DIY community to provide that more complete set of data (which should be more trustworthy too). We have seen it being done for the B200 in Germany. I believe it is only a matter of time that someone will do it here for the Hawthornes too.

I would actually enjoy seeing the results.

Dave

[Bob in St. Louis]

Would you like to see somebody with a little more experience use the driver in a project that newer poeple could then copy or modify and enjoy the benefits of somebody else's design experience? 

YES!!! 100% absolutely      aa

Bob

[Bob in St. Louis]

the technical director of Visaton who voted against it. ....There is only a small group of DIYers who can properly read elaborated diagrams like distortion at different power levels or directional response on different sized baffles. The majority of his DIY customers will be frightened off the more a diagram departs from ruler flat.

I understand his, and Darrels points of view too.

He would not mind private measurements being published as such

I wouldn't think Darrel would mind either, but I don't want to put words in his mouth.

I believe it is only a matter of time that someone will do it here for the Hawthornes too.

I know a fellow or two that might just do that. I'd love to see the results. Not nessesarily the graph, but the results of someone's efforts AFTER using that graph to it's fullest extent.


I don't mean to sound 'wishy washy', like I'm trying to be on both sides of the fence. But I can see the reasons for both arguments.

Bob