Advice sought on BIG power (with finesse, on a budget!)

mr_bill · « **Reply #40 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 06:50 pm »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 3 Nov 2006, 07:06 am

Quote
A few contenders seem to exist. To my knowledge they include Jeff Rowland model 501 (550 W into 8 ohms), a pair of Belles 150As bridged, (again 500 W into 8 ohms), the Dussun V8i (only 250 W, but reputed to perform like much more) and (wild card) the Crown Macro Reference (750 W into .

The McCormack DNA 500 would probably work a treat but, even second hand I don't think I could swing it and the Rowland and Belles would be a budget stretch.
Hello Russell,
Power, power, power.....thats what the TP's call for. From you picks, this is how I'd rank them...
1 - McCormack DNA 500
2 - Belles 150As bridged
3 - Jeff Rowland model 501
4 - Dussun V8i

I've heard all four....but not the Crown Macro Reference .....I think zybar / George had a Crown at one time.The McCormack and Rowland I heard were once owned by George....Belles heard in CO.....Dussin was at a Rave. I really enjoyed the McCormack....did have better bass than my Butler 2250's....but similar with mids and high's.
What's the budget ?

Chris

Don't confuse the Rowland 501's and 201's. The 501's are a little clearer, more detailed and more dynamic than the 201's. I've owned them both and now have the 501's.
Bill

Bill Baker · « **Reply #41 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 10:45 pm »

Being strickly a tube guy anymore, there are only 3 solid state (or Hybrid) amps I have heard that I could recommend. Obviously, these are only further options to consider.

1) Luminance KST-150 - Very fast solid state on the warmer side of neutral. retails for $3k.

2) Usher Audio R-1.5 - 150 watt Class A solid state. Also on the warmer side as compared to some other solid state amps. A beast at about 70 lbs. Retails for $2250.

3) Butler Hybrid- I think they are 150 watts Haven't heard one in a while but there is plenty of talk here about them.

If you want some beastly tube power, you could also try to find a used pair of ASL Hurricanes or Monsoons (These work great with the SP speakers!) or a pair of Jolida 3000 mono blocs.

Good luck with your venture.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #42 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 12:33 am »

mr_bill....

Quote

Don't confuse the Rowland 501's and 201's

You are correct....I was thinking 501's.....but I had heard 201's.....thanks....

Chris

Duke · « **Reply #43 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 01:07 am »

Russell,

First my disclaimer - as a speaker junkie, I tend to see the loudspeaker as the component that makes the biggest difference. Kinda like the guy whose only tool is a hammer, so to him everything looks like a nail...

It's possible that a more cost-effective way to get roughly 6 dB more headroom would be to sell the Timepieces and go for Continuums. They're 3 dB more efficient, and being a 4 ohm load your NuForce amps will deliver nearly twice their rated power into them. Having two woofer voice coils to dissipate the heat means that at equal SPL the Continuums will have less thermal compression than the Timepieces.

Just a thought.

Duke

zybar · « **Reply #44 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 01:12 am »

I don't know the seller, but this seems like a killer price for these amps:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1167876129

George

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #45 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 01:34 am »

Quote from: Duke on 6 Nov 2006, 01:07 am

Russell,

First my disclaimer - as a speaker junkie, I tend to see the loudspeaker as the component that makes the biggest difference. Kinda like the guy whose only tool is a hammer, so to him everything looks like a nail...

It's possible that a more cost-effective way to get roughly 6 dB more headroom would be to sell the Timepieces and go for Continuums. They're 3 dB more efficient, and being a 4 ohm load your NuForce amps will deliver nearly twice their rated power into them. Having two woofer voice coils to dissipate the heat means that at equal SPL the Continuums will have less thermal compression than the Timepieces.

Just a thought.

Duke

I like this suggestion the best, so far

Daygloworange · « **Reply #46 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 01:46 am »

Quote

ATI doesn't have the name recognition in the high-end, but SL uses them for his Orion speakers.

I'm using an ATI 1202 to run my studio monitors. I AB'd this amp with a Bryston 4B, and a newer Bryston, (the model escapes me now). The ATI, compared very well, full bodied, not harsh at all, good bottom end control. I'm running 91db efficient speakers, they are way overpowered for my application. I've run 4 ohm speakers with them with no problem.
They are reasonably priced as well. Salk sound recommends them for his active set-up on his HT-3's.

Check out the website:http://www.ati-amp.com/

Cheers

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #47 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 04:12 am »

Quote from: zybar on 6 Nov 2006, 01:12 am

I don't know the seller, but this seems like a killer price for these amps:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1167876129

George

Thanks for the heads up, George!
I checked into reviews and came up with this:
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Amplifiers.html
(see 4/10ths of the way down the page)
- sounds a little mixed. Also the 610 watts idling consumption gave me some pause, although it would substitute for some baseboard heat! Amazing price, anyway.
Thanks also for your comments re: the Moscode. Given that I need accuracy and not flattery I wonder if the Moscode is flattering or euphonic. Ideally, I would like my mixes to work on the greatest number of other systems and for that need to be as neutral as possible, even if that means I must suffer a less than entertaining system than I might otherwise choose. A sacrifice I must make. Tsk!

warnerwh · « **Reply #48 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 06:42 am »

I'd have to say the AVA Fetvalve 550 is unusually neutral. It is significantly better than any SS amp I've heard. I believe having the tubes in the input section must be the difference. I know AVA will send it with a 30 day or so satisfaction guarantee.

As for Classe I'm putting my money where my mouth is and bought a late CA200. It'll be here in another week or so. Will let you know if you care what I think of it. A friend has one on his RM 30's but my own system is what I know best. Most people say the midrange is very smooth or lush. The bass is supposedly not as articulate as most other amps, although I've read the opposite but not nearly as much.

For the money I'd try used unless you're rich. The BAT amps I've always felt could be outstanding and there's a 250wpc one on Agon right now for only 2,300 and I believe BAT amps double down in power so they're solid and stable amps.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #49 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 10:07 am »

I'm intrigued by the AVA Fetvalve. The price is something I can afford, and if it has the power ...I don't see an impedance listed along with the power rating on their website - would that be 250 W into 8 or 4 ohms?

I am also looking into Belles 350 A ref with 250 W into 8, which seems to be a contender.

In checking Agon I see a McIntosh MC 352 for $3000 asking, in Canada, which is convenient for me. Looks like a brute at 160 lb

and I wonder if there are any opinions around here on the sound.

I also noticed a BAT VK 500 (250/450W) for $2300. Any opinions on this?

I'm a little puzzled by the range of weight of these amps - 38lb for the AVA, 64lb for the Belles, 120 lb for the BAT and 160 lb for the McIntosh is quite a spread for similar spec'd amps!

I'm not rich and am happy to buy secondhand!

Thanks for all the useful feedback, everyone.

kirch · « **Reply #50 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 02:53 pm »

If I may throw in my 2 cents worth - I just had a Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated (ss) delivered and it is one serious piece of equipment. 250wpc and it is clean, fast and there is absolutely NO listening fatigue. Even my WIFE noticed it, and I gotta tell you, that NEVER happened before!

The best 2K I ever spent!

Kirch

ehart · « **Reply #51 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 03:52 pm »

Hi Warner,

I would like to hear what you think of the "late" Classe CA-200. I have one and like it, though I need to upgrade my source (Olive Musica) with an external DAC before I'm getting the full potential.

Yes, they do have a "warm" reputation, but that is not my experience at all. Very clean, detailed treble, and tight controlled and fast bass. The bass is not thumpy at all, so some might perceive light bass, but in my system, it feels very "real" in the bass. Imaging and channel separation is terrific. On the downside, the midrange is a little more recessed than I would like. So if anything more "clinical" than warm.

Again, I believe that a better source will make a big difference (I notice a *much* nicer midrange when I play the old turntable!) so I don't think it's a limitation of the amp. I have not tested other high-end amps in my system (well, I have, but none as expensive or nice-sounding as the Classe) so I'm not as educated an observer as you, and would like to hear your opinion.

Cordially,

Eric

ehart · « **Reply #52 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 03:56 pm »

p.s. on the Classe CA-200. This is below the original posters stated power requirements at 200WPC, so the recommendation of a CA-300 or CA-400 may be more to the point. If *weight* means anything, though, this thing will power anything -- it must weigh a good 75 or 80 pounds (takes two people to remove from the rack), and throws off enough heat to keep a corner of my basement warm (and to add about $25 to $50 to my monthly electric bill). They are very solidly built (inside and out) and very high-current.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #53 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 06:41 pm »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 4 Nov 2006, 09:17 pm

Russell.....Since you have had the TP's awhile....and since many have not heard them.....care to comment on them ? (likes and dislikes)
Their bookshelf size....right ?
Thanks......
Chris

Chris,
I just replied to a similar query on a pro forum. Under the circumstances I don't feel my impressions would be definitive until I have appropriate power, but I could post what I said in that response here, if it was felt to be appropriate, or I could post it as a review-in-progress on the SP Tech circle. Is it OK to post it in both places?

Occam · « **Reply #54 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 07:32 pm »

Russel,

Before you dump your NuForce amps, see if you can listen to them through a good powerconditioner. A good powerconditioner really transforms them. I'm not talking the likes of Monster, etc.....The new PSAudio Duet or Quintet (with a return privilege) would work a charm.....

FWIW,
Paul

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #55 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 07:44 pm »

Paul

How would you characterize the transformation with a power conditioner? Would it somehow give the impression of (much) more power? That's what I'm needing, according to what I'm hearing.

I can also guess that the Nuforce could sound great with the right speakers, but I'm not sure these are the right speakers for the Nuforce, and since the sound I'm getting is basically right, dynamics aside, I'm loathe to change the speakers.

Russell

Occam · « **Reply #56 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 08:21 pm »

Russel,

I've heard the NuForce 8s in various versions (not the 9 or 9SE) and found them at any loud volume to be 'congested' when powered directly from the wall. I'd assumed this was lack of power, resulting in bass that wasn't particularly deep or well controlled. Under these conditions, the rest of the spectrum also lacked resolution and clarity, and the soundstage was limited. I'd assumed this was due to lack of power. But then I heard these same NuForces powered via an Audience Adept or BPT balanced conditioner, and the results were like listening to a totally different amp. Far more controlled and deeper bass, and a removal of that 'confusion'. Realize this is in the Nu Yawk environs, and your power quality might be different. I also realize the 9 and 9se with their 2 stage smps might be different, but looking at the innards, I doubt it.
I recently heard the new PSAudio Duet (though not powering NuForces, which are actually very benign and easy load for a powerconditioner) and was tremendously impressed. Its now the benchmark which I'm trying to match with my own diy whole system conditioner, li'l Felix. For what the Duet does, I think it a very good value.

And obviously, you should make any purchase decision only after hearing it in your own system. It might be that those NuForces are simply underpowered for your SPs. dunno.

FWIW,
Paul

Dennis M. Clark · « **Reply #57 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 10:27 pm »

Russell Symphonic Line P 300mono amps. 2x200@8 Ohms. 2x300@4 Ohms. 1.5 - 500,000 Hz frequency range! >500 Damping Factor. >100 amps current delivery! Above average condition. Sound as new. Used these to drive my magnepans. Bought from Klaus at Odyssey about three years ago. Call Klaus at Odyssey, he can explain how good these amps perform. I will say they are big power, have superb bandwidth, great soundstaging and do have finesse! Dennis M. Clark

warnerwh · « **Reply #58 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 11:38 pm »

The Fetvalve 550 is 250wpc into 8 ohms and doubles into 4 ohms.

Eric: I'll let you know what I think of the Classe in my system. Thank you for your feedback as my friend and myself don't find his Classe amp that warm or loose in the bass. We'll see how it works in my system. I will be using it to drive the woofer section of Vmps RM 40's. These have a first order network so there's actually quite a significant amount of the midrange coming out also.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #59 on:** 7 Nov 2006, 12:18 am »

here is a copy of the reply I sent to an engineer on another forum about my impressions of the Timepieces:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=33220.msg295124;topicseen#new