Integrated vs pre+power

daninor · « **on:** 29 Oct 2006, 11:11 am »

Wouldnt surprize me if this has already been covered a few times, but my searches turned up with nothing, so I'll start up a new one.

In terms of amplifiers in the two-channel audio setup, what are the real pros (and cons, if any) of separated preamp and poweramp.

Lets say a high-end audio manufacturer has an integrated amp, poweramp and preamp in its product range, and all are top notch products at around $5000 apiece. That would sort of been where I am right now - why should I double the cost and buy separates? I think I will manage with integrated amp, but can anyone give me some tips on what benefits there are in terms of the listening experience and others as well of having separate amps. Assume also that both integrated amp and power amp have the same output power.

Thanks

JLM · « **Reply #1 on:** 29 Oct 2006, 12:58 pm »

Welcome to AC!

Advantage integrated:

- lower cost (including another set of interconnects)
- good synergy (versus trying to match up different vendors pre/power amps)
- less rack space needed
- fewer power cords/outlets required

Advantage separates:

- more flexibility to swap out or upgrade the pre or power amp
- should provide a slightly better sound
- possibly additional features (not uncommon)

Given the same parts/circuits, the advantages in sound quality by going with separates are subtle, mostly revolving around limited/shared power supplies and shielding of low voltage pre-ampilifier circuits from the RF/EMI given off by higher voltage power amp circuits. But you should expect that a $5000 integrated to be a notch below the same vendor's $5000 pre + $5000 power amp in terms of parts quality, power supply "beefiness", and circuit design. OTOH a $7-8000 integrated could very well have the same parts/circuits as the same vendor's $5000 pre and $5000 power amps.

Mixing and matching (synergy issues defined by the numbers and the ear) between pre and power amps from different vendors is a much bigger issue/concern and can require extensive experimentation (plus time and cost) to get "right".

The real question is how much do you want to invest to have the flexibility that separates afford. Of course vendors love separates as it provides an upgrade path within their product line and increased their initial sales, while hopefully retaining the synergy between components.

If flexibility is a consideration, look for an integrated that has pre-amp outputs and power amp inputs (typically side-by-side RCA jacks on the back with some sort of U-shaped connector).

Note that some "integrates" are simply power amps with a volume control, which amounts to having a simple passive pre-amp and only allows for a single input. A few of these do offer switching between sources. But a true pre-amp buffers the impedance mis-matches between source(s) and the power amp (plus other possible features). This offers obvious, but often ignored sonic advantages.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #2 on:** 29 Oct 2006, 01:24 pm »

The main benefit of seperates is that each component has its own power supply, which in turn provides better performance for each individual part. Also, separate chassis allows for better EMI/RF protection for parts that don't need to be near a bit power amp's transformers. Of course, much of the benefits depend on the implementation. How much benefit you'll actually hear is dependent on all the usual audiophile stuff (what you can hear, your room, your other components, etc)...

markC · « **Reply #3 on:** 29 Oct 2006, 02:48 pm »

There is also mono block amps to consider, which should, by design, offer the best channel seperation. This should result in a better defined sound stage such as instrument and vocals placement.

daninor · « **Reply #4 on:** 29 Oct 2006, 04:32 pm »

You guys are great, thanks a lot. Now for the actual choices I am contemplating.

Initially, my mind was set on an integrated amp. It should be noted that I am a proud owner of B&W Nautilus 804S that is going into whatever I end up buying.

Choice one on integrated amp is ECI5 from Electrocompaniet (http://www.electrocompaniet.no/products/integrated/eci5.html). This one is 2x120W and has a great rep amongst its owners.

Choice two is B-150 from Densen (http://www.densen.dk/products/B-150/b150.htm). At 2x100W it is slightly less power, but costs about 50% more which in itself is an indicator. The design of the box is awesome. It is Densen that has a combo of pre- and power amp that both looks and sounds very tempting, even though my thoughts are still on the integrated one.

Both these vendors are very well known in the high-end audio over here in Europe but I am not sure how well they have done in the US.

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #5 on:** 29 Oct 2006, 05:51 pm »

My main concern with integrated amps are the ones that do not provide both preamp out and amp in jacks. My preferred way of connecting a subwoofer is to insert a bass management controller between the preamp and amp. With this capability you can get by with a smaller amp, possibly smaller speakers and it will reduce distortion of the main speakers. Just something to keep in mind.

-- Bob

Hogg · « **Reply #6 on:** 29 Oct 2006, 06:00 pm »

I think you will find the sound of these two amps distinctly different. The Electrocompaniet is a more romantic sounding amp. It's very easy to listen to for long periods of time. The Denesen amp is more in the Naim tradition. It has great drive, a little edgy and plays rock, acoustical very well. I would carefully audition both with the music you normally listen to.

Jim

warnerwh · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 Oct 2006, 09:34 pm »

I like the fact that I can swap out just the amp. Also I tend to like high powered amps and there's not alot of integrateds that have 200wpc or more.

It's very much a personal thing. You can do well going either route.

ehart · « **Reply #8 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 03:49 am »

I look forward to hearing what you discover.

In my own lower-budget ($2500 or less list price) search, I found separates to be quite a bit better sounding for a given amount of money, surprisingly. For one thing, there are more "deals" on separates, as they are more common. Also separates allowed me to put the bulk of the initial money where it mattered most (pre-amp) and later upgrade the amp (the pair now list at about $5000, more than I could budget originally).

I would have preferred an integrated (at the time) for simplicity and space reasons, and always wondered if expensive, more powerful integrateds, which weren't available to demo in my area, would have sounded as good as good separates. Let us know.

You may want to ask these questions at Audiogon also (maybe you have) where I have heard integrated from Plinius and (I believe) SimAudio discussed with respect, in your price range.

- Eric

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 05:52 am »

I've always had a sneaking regard for integrated amps. You should have synergy as the pre & power sections were designed to work well together, plus you cut out a pair of ICs- even the best ICs are worse than no IC. And there's just an elegance about them that I like.

LightFire · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 06:32 am »

Quote from: JLM on 29 Oct 2006, 12:58 pm

Welcome to AC!

Advantage integrated:

- lower cost (including another set of interconnects)
- good synergy (versus trying to match up different vendors pre/power amps)
- less rack space needed
- fewer power cords/outlets required

Advantage separates:

- more flexibility to swap out or upgrade the pre or power amp
- should provide a slightly better sound
- possibly additional features (not uncommon)

...

JLM says it all in his post.

I like to have as much flexibility as I can afford (in money and rack space).

Tyrro · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 11:11 am »

I'd recommend to include Lavardin IS Reference or even IT to your list of integrated amps. These are one of the best sounding int. amps ever made.
There are plenty of good reviews about both models.

daninor · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 12:23 pm »

Quote from: Tyrro on 30 Oct 2006, 11:11 am

I'd recommend to include Lavardin IS Reference or even IT to your list of integrated amps. These are one of the best sounding int. amps ever made.
There are plenty of good reviews about both models.

Thanks for the tip, but after some research it turns out that the IT model only outputs 2x48W which is far to shy for my B&W N804S speakers. I would need at least twice that.

Thebiker · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 02:03 pm »

I'm a bigtime proponent of integrateds, as a result I own 4 of them: Manley, Cary, an old Integra solid state and a old but sweet Scott 222C. IMHO nothing makes music like tubes.

I can't speak to the B&W 804's but I have had my Cary hooked up to the B&W 805's. A stunning synergistic match. Depends on your musical taste, if you like to blast metal, more power is always better. For my needs, including an occasional foray down late 60's early 70's hard rock, the Cary delivers all the volume I can use.

Good luck and enjoy the search!

PhilNYC · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 02:19 pm »

Quote from: daninor on 29 Oct 2006, 04:32 pm

You guys are great, thanks a lot. Now for the actual choices I am contemplating.

Initially, my mind was set on an integrated amp. It should be noted that I am a proud owner of B&W Nautilus 804S that is going into whatever I end up buying.

Choice one on integrated amp is ECI5 from Electrocompaniet (http://www.electrocompaniet.no/products/integrated/eci5.html). This one is 2x120W and has a great rep amongst its owners.

Choice two is B-150 from Densen (http://www.densen.dk/products/B-150/b150.htm). At 2x100W it is slightly less power, but costs about 50% more which in itself is an indicator. The design of the box is awesome. It is Densen that has a combo of pre- and power amp that both looks and sounds very tempting, even though my thoughts are still on the integrated one.

Both these vendors are very well known in the high-end audio over here in Europe but I am not sure how well they have done in the US.

In my limited experience with the B&W 804s, I found that they like to be driven by a lot of power. 20wpc probably won't make a ton of difference, but still its something to think about. I've not heard the Densen, but I do have some experience with some Electrocompaniet amps and wasn't all that enamoured with them...

daninor · « **Reply #15 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 02:28 pm »

Ive found one flaw with Densen products that is almost too incredible to believe. None of their products have XLR connectors (in or out) so that would make it hard to pair them with any balanced products from other vendors that have XLR on the back. Ive sent en email to Densen and look forward to see what they say on this. I certainly dont want to force myself to choose one brand in the future.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #16 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 02:33 pm »

Quote from: daninor on 30 Oct 2006, 02:28 pm

Ive found one flaw with Densen products that is almost too incredible to believe. None of their products have XLR connectors (in or out) so that would make it hard to pair them with any balanced products from other vendors that have XLR on the back. Ive sent en email to Densen and look forward to see what they say on this. I certainly dont want to force myself to choose one brand in the future.

I don't know if I'd call this a "flaw"...if the component in question isn't balanced internally, then having an XLR connector wouldn't really be any different than adding an RCA/XLR adaptor to it. Of course, if the component *is* internally balanced and they didn't provide a balanced in/out, then that's a design flaw...

woodsyi · « **Reply #17 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 02:54 pm »

I heard N801s driven by ARC VT200 and it sounded pretty good. I would think a 90 db speakers like N804 can be driven with a 50 watt PP tube amp and sound pretty good. I have heard other B & W speakers on SS amps and I was not impressed. I drive a pair of 90 db speakers http://www.responseaudio.com/bellaSPAV1main.htm with a 48 watt integrated tube amp http://www.vongaylordaudio.com/product_html/prostarlet.htm in my bedroom -- gorgeous chamber music, vocals and Jazz ensembles. 48 watts are also plenty to rock the room if you want to -- I reached 100 db playing Def Leppard without any distortion. Good luck in your search.

dado5 · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 03:29 pm »

Very few amps (Quicksilver Horns and Cary Rocket 88 are the only ones I can think of) require a pre amp at all – a pre amp with gain is superfluous at best. A pre amp in a modern system is just going to add noise and a sonic signature. The signature may be pleasing but if this is the case, by definition, the amplifier has something undesirable about its sound so why not just replace it? IMO this defeats the flexibility argument as well – tailoring your sound is cheaper and easier when you are only replacing one component (and don't forget the whole cable thing).

Stick with integrateds. If you really love an amp that has no volume/selection capabilities, go with a passive box to minimize potential sonic additive/increased noise issues.

Happy hunting,
Rob

daninor · « **Reply #19 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 04:26 pm »

Quote from: daninor on 30 Oct 2006, 02:28 pm

Ive found one flaw with Densen products that is almost too incredible to believe. None of their products have XLR connectors (in or out) so that would make it hard to pair them with any balanced products from other vendors that have XLR on the back. Ive sent en email to Densen and look forward to see what they say on this. I certainly dont want to force myself to choose one brand in the future.

Quick follow-up with the answer from Densen:

Quote

The only advantage the XLR build amp gives is that it gives you no hum. But has problems with hum? That is why the XLR system was originally made for professional use where you have 100m of interconnects. Therefore the XLR is a waste in normal Hi-Fi applications.

Besides we can make normal single ended connections sound better than XLR… So for us it is a no brainer, and should be for you as well.

Seems reasonable to me, but Im no expert. Comments?