[gooberdude]

Just wondering if anyone has experienced an unexpected benefit(s) from using acoustic products?  I'm way new to this...

I had a major "ah ha!!" moment earlier, not the first but possibly the last.  installed a MG Room Tunes kit a month or so ago. it definitely tuned my room, but i figured a bit more fiddling was in order.  i bought a pair of 2'x2' 4" thick backless panels from ATS Acoustics as a replacement for a homemade bass trap.  Initially i added them at the 1st reflections.  In every locale the 2 panels essentially sucked the life outta the room.  as i removed one from the room the bass got louder though - so it stayed out. i set the remaining panel on the carpet directly in between my floorstanding thiels (vertically) & it was like a canon went off (in my dramatic mind anyways).  the volume jumped & the bass got tight, loud & right.  there was an issue with the soundstage though, no matter what direction the panel faced.  next, i laid it on top of my tv (vert), and it now resides there laying against the wall on one side, so its 5' off the ground up to 7' & leaning against the wall. like a lean-to.    my tv is about 4' from the corner behind my speakers, which are 45 degree angle to the room.

the improvement is insane.  so quiet in here now.  i live right above LSD in chicago & you can always hear traffic faintly.   All together have spent $265 on acoustics.   

the largest difference is in the clarity, force & energy of the sound now.   kinda unbelievable.
and i've been listening to a cheap sony cd changer all night & a '72 marantz integrated as a preamp...nothing fancy.   

acoustics may well be the most important thing in this hobby - if i might climb out on a limb:  aren't we really just listening to fancy vibrating air?     

one of the oddest things is now i can listen at a low level (going by the preamp knob position) yet have the music be loud & sweet.  its louder in my room, yet i'm sending less power to the speakers.  end result is less vibes into the floors - great for neighbor issues.    this might lead one to low powered tube amps real quick.  i gotta stress 'clarity' of the music signal, i'm blown away.

soooo weird to hear effortless bass...again, i'm new to this.

no affiliations, not a shill - just a happy guy.

matt

[bpape]

Glad you found something that works for you.  I hope it's something you continue to like in the long term. 

My conern is that when you pulled 2 2" reflection point panels your bass got considerably louder.  In theory, that makes no sense at all.  A 2" panel should have neglibible effect on the true bottom end no matter where it is in the room - much less at a reflection point (assuming side wall).

My fear is that it's something that is giving you a 'WOW' effect that is not accurate and you'll tire of it over time.  I certainly hope that I'm wrong and you've found one of those odd things that sometimes happen in a room that flies in the face of theoy.

Bryan

[gooberdude]

Its the weirdest thing.  Of course the changes are new - so i'll be fully testing this in the nights to come.

1 bought 2 - 4" thick backless panels from ATS.  removing the backboard is supposed to make it more of a bass trap.

my room is already 'tuned' via a michael green tunepak.  I bought the new panels to play with bass trapping.   adding both of them killed the sonics in the room -  and there was no bass.  Removing one from the room made a huge improvement in the bass but no real improvement in sonics yet.  Properly (if you can call it that!) placing the one panel INSTANTLY made the sonics explode, like my speakers suddenly gained 6db in sensitivity.  not sure if 6db is a crazy exageration, but a marked & big leap in perceptible volume output. 

And not only the leap in bass & sonics, but the clarity of the sound.  **Like i was listening to an old nasty tt with filthy records and then someone hit play on a hi-end cdp without telling me.

All night I thought about what to do with the rogue 2nd panel that my room hates, so i took it into work with me this morning, and laid it across the back seat of my car...again,   WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Huge leap forward in the soundstage - its always been even with my ear, now its on the front dash or even further out.

acoustics is really, really crucial.  i don't understand squat about it, but i can hear the effects BIGTIME.

my neighbors are going to thank me.  i can rock out without sending as much vibration through the concrete slab floor.
 

[nathanm]

Acoustical issues aside, I think the most important step is making your room a comfortable, inviting place where you want to concentrate on music.  Absorbing ambient noise and thus making the room much quieter is a huge psychological improvement in my view.  The more you can get the everyday noise filtered the better your system sounds.  If you have refridgerators, furnaces, fans, motors or other sounds going on it detracts from the experience, even if you think it's not there.  My place is pretty quiet, but when the fridge shuts off it's like, "ahh!  that's better!" 

[gooberdude]

i totally agree.  i rarely listen to tunes when my dishwasher is running.

I live in a tall bldg on Lakeshore Drive & road noise is constant, a white background noise.   I read a study not long ago that this can cause long term neural damage - it was comparing folks who lived in urban surroundings and those who live in the country...probably testing blood pressure!

Anyways, with that 4" panel in, i can't hear the cars.  I've been in this condo for 3 years.   another side benefit & not one i've heard others comment on.

with the Room Tunes kit installed, road noise was noticeably less.  Now, its all but gone.

another really oddball thing i noticed but haven't yet tested, is that speaker placement, toe-in and such might not make as big a diff as before.  there's no more sweet spot to the sound, the sound is everywhere and its sweet sounding.  No matter if i'm standing, sitting or walking around the soundstage is HUGE.     During every listening session prior to last night, the sound changed if i turned my head....

oy, i could go on & on!

[Ethan Winer]

oy, i could go on & on!

And I bet you will, here and elsewhere.

I don't mean to sound cynical, but how can a couple of these ...



... reduce road noise even a little? Did you happen to measure before and after with an SPL meter? I'd love to see the results.

--Ethan

[gooberdude]

Hey Ethan,

I don't own an SPL meter or anything, just going by what i've experienced.
The Room Tunes kit has the 4 corners +  4-48" long corner strips + 2 'echo buster' panels.    I'm not pimping this product, other than to say that it + the 4" panel worked wonders for cheap.   Silence in my condo has not been 'heard' (for lack of a better term) ever since the day I moved in...

During my initial walk thru with the seller's agent, when he could tell I could hear the road noise, he exclaimed "Can't you just feel the energy here?"  I about lost it!         

The huge glass windows & sliding door are well made & do a good job of noise reduction - for a 30 yr old product...I can always do the part in Pet Detective when Ace V figures out the sliding doors are soundproof!

If someone is in chicago & wants to measure, the Kit can be removed in 5 minutes for testing....    i'm dying for someone with an ear for this stuff to come and listen, especially once the Malaysian super TVC arrives next week.

You must really freak out customers with your skills...i had NO idea acoustic treatments could do anything like what i've experienced.   there is music all around my head, all around the room, and it sounds amazing & true.  The soundstage raised up a good foot or more, and i've heard sounds almost up to my ceiling at times.   

and, at 20%-30% less power to my speakers.   What's the reason behind this benefit?   its kinda freakin me out.

The full RoomTunes kit did quiet the car noise down some - adding the 4" 2'x2' panel made the room damn near silent though.   bear in mind that trucks are not allowed on LSD, just cars...and i'm on the 19th floor.     Tonight when i get home will be a better test, more traffic.

Have you tuned a/your cars interior?   i'm quite stoked to get another listen here shortly, on my ride home i'm gonna stick the 4" panel in my trunk & see what happens.

Ethan, you're contributions on this & other forums is always appreciated.  You seem to be the only Pro that chimes in - thanks a bunch.

i wish more folk were into acoustics now, rather than cables & sicko $ amps...

we're just listening to fancy vibrating air right???   

matt

[Mike Dzurko]

You are sooo right about how important acoustic treatment is, I've experienced this in countless rooms . . . perfect example:

This weekend we did RMAF. When I first setup our system it sounded good, but no where close to what I knew it should be like.  Then Glenn and Bryan set up their GIK Acoustics treatments in the room. BAMMMM! What a difference, night and day. Over and over again throughout the show folks would comment on how good the ROOM sounded compared to many others. Of course I do not want to take anything away from my speakers as yes, they do a great job. But without the GIK treatments, it's like running your Ferrari on low grade fuel. 

[gooberdude]

I didn't get much time to play around last night, but when i got home it was apparent the
soundstage was skewed to the left a bit.  I tried many spots with the lone 4" panel, but the musicians sounded best when the panel was not in the room.  The MG Room Tunes kit is all my room needs.  

For the $ spent, forget about it -'m totally stoked.  All the pieces except the corner triangles are totally hidden too, and i'm thinking of re-creating the Black Crowes 'Amorica' banned album cover on one triangle   aa

The deepest bass registers do pop out when the panel is in the room, but the imaging issue
bugs me.  So, both 4" panels are in my car and rockin'!   1 in the trunk, the other in back seat.  hilarious...
If I want louder bass, i can just crank the volume up.

haven't really tested out how the kit or the panels effect road noise in my home except to say that if you live near a constant noise source, like I do, tuning/treating your room cannot hurt.  I won't say the db level of the noise has been reduced...but LSD traffic sounds are much more pleasant now.  Like the edge has been removed & now traffic sounds like a dull 'shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh' rather than the bass heavy droning before the treatments.  Horns, sirens and screeching tires are still completely audible though...

For the first time since i began caring, CD's & LP's sound very difft from one another but its no longer good vs. bad....they are 2 unique flavors now, gulp, each with their own strengths.    

[gooberdude]

Hey Mike,

My dad is going to buy a few pairs of your in-wall speakers soon.  I asked around to several forums, since i know zero about in-wall applications, and many guys recomended ACI.   Hopefully he'll get the largest chambered ones you make...      He wants to mount them directly to the drywall ceiling - I'm trying to convince him to mount them to a nearby 2x4 and just fire through the hole in the ceiling. 

If he goes with trying to screw them directly into drywall, is it prudent to at least put a plywood mounting ring inbetween the driver and the drywall?  he won't be driving these with more than 30wpc from an Onkyo receiver.

With my limited acoustic treatment education under way, I have to think that treating a hotel room or convention floor space would be neceessary to let your stuff sing.  If I had more $ to spend, GIK's panels would be adorning my walls.

So often I've been told by shops that i'd need this amp and those cables to make speakers sound/work right.   No salesguy has ever pushed room treatments to sell their stuff....so odd.    I don't get it.

from what i've experienced, acoustic treatments should be considered a tweak that isn't subjective.   they really are needed to get the most out of our investment.

[Dmason]

Here's one. Offbeat, but real.

After the treatment of the entire roof and girders of the Buffalo War Memorial Auditorium with acoustic spray foam. Although concerts are produced in mono, the difference between two stacks of PA speakers, and a flown, radial array of JBL horns suspended from center ice, under a circular stage was staggering. Night and day. True audiophool sound quality. YES, 08/78.

 Hope this helps.

[Mike Dzurko]

Hey Mike,

My dad is going to buy a few pairs of your in-wall speakers soon.  I asked around to several forums, since i know zero about in-wall applications, and many guys recomended ACI.   Hopefully he'll get the largest chambered ones you make...      He wants to mount them directly to the drywall ceiling - I'm trying to convince him to mount them to a nearby 2x4 and just fire through the hole in the ceiling. 

If he goes with trying to screw them directly into drywall, is it prudent to at least put a plywood mounting ring inbetween the driver and the drywall?  he won't be driving these with more than 30wpc from an Onkyo receiver.

With my limited acoustic treatment education under way, I have to think that treating a hotel room or convention floor space would be neceessary to let your stuff sing.  If I had more $ to spend, GIK's panels would be adorning my walls.

So often I've been told by shops that i'd need this amp and those cables to make speakers sound/work right.   No salesguy has ever pushed room treatments to sell their stuff....so odd.    I don't get it.

from what i've experienced, acoustic treatments should be considered a tweak that isn't subjective.   they really are needed to get the most out of our investment.

The more you can "brace" the inwalls, the better. That said, 90% of the installs are just done in sheet rock. Not the best way, but the easiest. The only problem with a plywood ring is that it will probably be too thick for the mounting system to work. The system is designed to work with 5/8" sheetrock and probably has about another 1/4" of latitude.

I totally agree with your comments on the room treatments and salespeople. They'd much rather sell a set of cables than room treatment, a shame really.

[srlaudio]

Hi Mike, I have been a fan of your work for a long time, you assisted me on many of the custom built speakers we sold to music pros here in Nashville......we have been dealing with acoustical issues for a long time, so we came out with our own products.  The designs are unique in that they accomodate large as well as small rooms.....I see from your pics that you are aware of QRD diffusors.....check out what we are up  to, and let us hear from you!

Allen Rumbaugh

[Mike Dzurko]

Hi Mike, I have been a fan of your work for a long time, you assisted me on many of the custom built speakers we sold to music pros here in Nashville......we have been dealing with acoustical issues for a long time, so we came out with our own products.  The designs are unique in that they accomodate large as well as small rooms.....I see from your pics that you are aware of QRD diffusors.....check out what we are up  to, and let us hear from you!

Allen Rumbaugh

Allen:

Good to hear from you . . . I remember those days   I'll check out your site. Feel free to email me anytime.

Mike Dzurko
ACI
miked@audioc.com
www.audioc.com

[aerius]

I had a room setup epiphany which I suppose fits under the general category of acoustic treatment.  A few years back I was helping a friend setup his new speakers in his room, we spent hours moving them back & forth, side to side, played with toe-in but no matter what we did we couldn't get them to sound anywhere near as good as they did in the showroom.  Near the end of the day and out of ideas, I somehow remembered the diagonal setup method from the Decware site, we slapped the speakers roughly in place and fired up the system, expecting yet more subpar sound.  Miracle of miracles, it actually sounded as good if not better than the showroom, and we ended up listening till well past midnight.

[michaelv]

aerius, intersting reading.

I was wondering  how far between speakers from the wall and from the listening seat in triangular setup? i have similar room 12x14 and i would like to try. The main point is i want to get better bass and imaging.


thanks.

[Alwayswantmore]

I had a room setup epiphany which I suppose fits under the general category of acoustic treatment.  A few years back I was helping a friend setup his new speakers in his room, we spent hours moving them back & forth, side to side, played with toe-in but no matter what we did we couldn't get them to sound anywhere near as good as they did in the showroom.  Near the end of the day and out of ideas, I somehow remembered the diagonal setup method from the Decware site, we slapped the speakers roughly in place and fired up the system, expecting yet more subpar sound.  Miracle of miracles, it actually sounded as good if not better than the showroom, and we ended up listening till well past midnight.

I found the concept in the Decware article very interesting. It is clear from the diagram that reflections from the left speaker will initially bounce AWAY (to the left of the listening chair as pictured in the diagram). But would'nt the same thing happen to the right spkr? In otherwords, the first couple reflections from the right speaker would ALSO bounce to the LEFT side of the listening chair, right?

[gooberdude]

I tried my L/R setup in a diagonal fashion after reading the Decware site too...it helped immensely for quite some time.   kinda sucked moving all my furniture to suit it, but the gains in bass & imaging were tremendous.    For the 1st time the soundstage was 'whole' and stretched from speaker to speaker and beyond.  rather than pockets of sound it was all very cohesive.

Then i bought the RoomTunes kit which negated the digaonal set-up...so happy to have my L/R furniture back in the normal position.

the decware papers on this set-up state that this arrangement is meant for untreated rooms...it in no way is as effective as acoustic treatments, but it was a necessary & worthwhile experiment if you're trying anything to make the room sound good.


aerius, there's no issue about some waves reaching you and others not...just try it.  It won't be a permanent move, just an enlightening one.    the diagonal is meant to negate some of the bad things that an untreated room does.  If diag works for you, its an indicator that you need to treat the room acoustically.

What room treatments give you (and diag won't) is HUGE, DEEP, TIGHT bass at relatively low volume levels.  the rest of the spectrum sweetens up too, bigtime. and the noisefloor drops.

matt

[Ethan Winer]

... the diagonal setup method from the Decware site

That can definitely help imaging because early reflections from the side walls are directed to the rear of the room. But there are several limitations:

1. This does nothing for early reflections off the ceiling which are just as damaging.

2. The corner that's now behind the listening position focuses all the sound right back at you. The reflections are delayed so they're no longer early, but the focusing effect is stronger than when oriented the usual way. (See lines #6 and #7 in Figure 2.)

3. This does nothing to reduce excess ambience, or improve bass peaks / nulls and ringing that occur in all untreated rooms.

--Ethan