What should I do first?

spectralman · « **on:** 23 Jun 2003, 05:57 pm »

Well, I tend to be a bit impatient and impulsive when it comes to this hobby. My question for all of you is this: What change should I make in my system first? Speakers, preamp, power amp? Right now, my system is rather mid-fi, with a B&K PT-5 preamp, B&K Ref. 200.2 power amp, modded 3-way JBL's with a decent x-over. The only piece in my system that I'm happy withis the CDP, a Cary 308. The preamp is really bad, so bad that when listening to CDs I'm running the CDP straight to the power amp. I know the speakers I have are not great but they're not too bad (std. 14" JBL woofer with a Vifa mid and Seas tweeter). Should I save my nickels for a while to change the speakers first (probably VMPS RM40's) or would getting a different preamp now be the way to go. I'm not even going to worry about IC's the components get sorted out. Thanks.

Bill

Carlman · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 Jun 2003, 06:14 pm »

Sounds like you've pretty much answered your own question. Based on what you're saying:
1st: Preamp
2nd: Speakers

The B&K 200 is nice and worth keeping in my opinion. I'm a 2-channel guy so, if you're doing home theater as well, there's a lot to consider before making a choice on either the pre or the speakers.

Good luck!

byteme · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 Jun 2003, 06:21 pm »

You might be suprised how much a good preamp can help. And, you don't have to spend a ton. I've got a Philly Audio Blues 7b tube preamp that cost $350 shipped plus another $40 for better tubes and it's fantastic. A-gon is a great place to look for used stuff too. I'd go this way because it's the least expensive and if it turns out the improvement isn't there, turn around and resell it to cut your losses to almost nothing!

jasonc · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 Jun 2003, 11:16 pm »

Speakers make the biggest impact in sound. I say.. save for the speakers you want then build around them if you so need to.

warnerwh · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 Jun 2003, 04:47 am »

I second JasonC.

satfrat · « **Reply #5 on:** 24 Jun 2003, 05:16 am »

HI, looking over your setup, I don`t see any foundation, that being power conditioning. As far as I`m concerned (got this from Psychicanimal

) you need a good foundation before building your system. Hell, even a mid-fi system (that`s me

) will sound like million bucks with a dead silent ground noise. Allot of examples out there, Psychic prefers isolation trannys while I like BPT`s w/Bybee, lots of Bybee`s

. Once you`ve addressed that, you`ll be better prepared to hear any issues you might encounter much better. Anywho,:roll:, that`s all I gots,,,, Regards, Robin

Jay S · « **Reply #6 on:** 24 Jun 2003, 05:36 am »

I tend to agree with Satfrat. Start with upgrades that will set a foundation for your system and will not do any harm; other component upgrades can be a mixed bag. Power is great starting point, if you already have a few decent components. Work on your room acoustics early as well! Get in touch with Bill Laurent at 8th Nerve.

Like Satfrat, I also have a balanced power supply, and am discovering just how much bybees can add to the overall sound. I have some room treatments but intend to get some advice/feedback from Bill.

Brad V · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Jun 2003, 01:59 pm »

Hi Bill,

Before you add or change any piece of gear, nothing will make more of a difference, from this point forward, than your room.

If you can, address this first.

Too many times, I see people trying to fix this or that problem with a different cable.

You can make an under $2,000 complete system in a great room, outshine a $50,000 system in a crappy room

Once you get the room done right, you can properly analyze any new additions properly.

Have a great day,

Brad

Sedona Sky Sound · « **Reply #8 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 01:21 am »

Even though I don't sell room acoustic treatment, I have to agree with Brad V. The room can be the most important audio component in many cases. There has been several very interesting thread regarding room acoustics going on over at the VMPS Circle:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=3065
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=2771&start=160

Many room problems can be fixed for very little cost so this is also one of the most economic changes you can make.

As for next, I would tend to say pick your speakers (as an RM40 dealer, of course I think that is a great choice

). The sonics of your speakers (and how easy they are to drive) would tend to dictate everything else. In your case, the B&K amp should be OK so you can then focus on getting a better pre-amp. Since your CDP seems to have enough output voltage, you can probably get a low cost passive pre-amp that would sound great. If you are into kit building, something like a Foreplay tube pre-amp is relatively cheap and great sounding (especially with VMPS ribbons).

As for power conditioning, wait until you either must have it or are ready to get the most out of an already good system. Does clean power make a difference? Absolutely. However, there are still significant issues associated with most of the power products currently on the market (some don't work in some situations, some have transformer hum of their own, regenerators get very hot due to low efficiency, most can't handle the current of high-end amps, etc.). If you want fully regenerated power for your entire system, expect to spend $10k+. If you go with the lower cost "conditioners", then you may or may not be making a change for the better (do not assume that all power company AC waveforms are the same because often they are not).

Best of luck.

Julian
www.sedonaskysound.com

spectralman · « **Reply #9 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 05:36 am »

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input. It helps a great deal to hear the opinions of others have have been through similar travails. I will be saving my money for now for new speakers, but also will explore the room treatment issue. I had built some Jon Risch tube traps in the past that worked great and may build some new ones for my current room. I will also need to look into some ort of wall hangings for the front and back walls. But, please don't stop offering your opinions now. I'm like a sponge, always ready to absorb new info.

doug s. · « **Reply #10 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 11:30 am »

power is wery important, but since isolation transformers are awailable for pennies on the dollar at ebay, i'd say ya can do this while *still* saving for that "1st" component upgrade!

the room *is* the single largest component; if yours is deficient, addressing this will enable ya to hear any other changes.

re: which piece of equipment to do 1st, i'd efinitely do the preamp 1st. a great preamp will allow ya to hear differences in speakers easier, & will get the most outta any particular speaker ya have. ya likely don't really know how good yer present jbl's really sound. i'm not saying jbl's are the be-all/end-all of speakers, yust that ya haven't heard 'em at their best...

doug s.

Jay S · « **Reply #11 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 11:44 am »

Power filtration need not cost $10k and can be a good early step. I like to think that there are power upgrades that also are unlikely to have detrimental effects on the sound.

If you can DIY, a Jon Rish power filter seems to help front end components quite a bit and is not expensive. www.diycable.com has a kit. It will limit dynamics, so don't plug your power amp into it.

You can also look into a Quantum Symphony or Symphony Pro parallel power filter, which really helps the entire frequency range. It will not limit dynamics. They are $300 and $600 new, respectively, but you can sometimes snag them for half price used on www.audiogon.com. The Blue Circle Noisehound is similar but not quite as effective as the Symphony Pro, and is said to improve the bass more than the treble. Brand new, the Noisehound is $110 for 1 or $100/ea for 2+.

You can also step up to $450 and get a Bolder Cable Quantum power bar, which has 6 silver plated outlets and 2 bybee filters. It won't limit dynamics. And 1 pair of outlets is for digital and will help isolate these components from your preamp and amp.

Ultimately, synergy among all your components will be very important. For example, I can tell you that the Bolder Cable Mensa DI/O dac + nOrh Le Amp / IRD Audio MB-100 monoblock amp + nOrh mini 9 speakers + a good non-current limiting power filter sound great.

That said, please start with a good set of room treatments like the 8th Nerve Room Pack (though do consult with Bill Laurent first).

doug s. · « **Reply #12 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 12:09 pm »

jay, power conditioners don't need to cost anywhere near what even you're suggesting. $400-$600 medical grade isolation x-formers can be had on ebay for $30-$50... i have several. monster-sized x-formers, which are >$1k new, can be had for $100-$200. super-monster x-formers big enuff to power several of yer neighbors houses, can be had for $1k-$2k, if ya really wanna get extreme. same for power supplies - i got a ~$1100 hewlett-packard 0v-20v, 0a-4a power supply for my turntable's origin-live dc motor kit for $100...

doug s.

Jay S · « **Reply #13 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 02:27 pm »

Doug,

Wow, then they would be a no-brainer, then. I do remember reading your posts about them before but followed through since I need 220v and its likely that shipping to HK would cost an arm and a leg... so much for any savings!

I'm happy with my Blue Circle balanced power supply, and will have a NITRO power cable with 2 bybees built in soon... though the combo does cost more than $30!

But, hey, at least my system doesn't cost $140k and my cables do cost much less than a new VW Jetta!

Sedona Sky Sound · « **Reply #14 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 06:10 pm »

Any time you can do something cheap that has a higher likelyhood of helping your sound than hurt it, I am absolutely all for it

. However, I do stand by my statement that it will likely cost $10k (maybe $5k if you get lucky on Audiogon) to provide clean power to your components. There is only one true way to do this and that is with a power regenerator (AC->DC->AC). All these units are still very expensive, generate a lot of heat, etc.. Partial regenerators can help in low voltage and badly distorted waveform situations, but the end AC sine wave will still not be perfect.

Many of the conditioner/isolation/sacraficial products do work well in certain instances, but none of them will provide a perfect AC waveform to your audio components. Here in Texas, 2nd-5th order harmonics are particularly bad and cause significant transformer hum in amps. The thing to realize is that an isolation transformer will stop DC but will pass a distorted AC waveform virtually unchanged. Isolation transformers actually make the problem worse since they will actually produce their own hum do to core saturation by an asymetrical waveform.

I am a fan of balanced power (which fixes the ground-loop issue) but it still does not ensure that your components receive clean power. As a dealer who has less tha ideal power at his showroom, this topic is very important to me. I have spent several hundred hours researching, testing, comparing, etc. and I have yet to find an affordable product that fits my needs or the needs of my customers. In some cases, marketing claims and pseudo-science by some of the power manufactureres rivals that of the high-end cable companies

. In closing, if a product works for you and fixes the problem you have, buy it and have fun. I just don't recommend making expensive purchases prior to defining your problem. The thing that worked for your neighbor may not work for you. Sorry, I will get off my soapbox now.

Julian
www.sedonaskysound.com