[PhilNYC]

Here's a bizarre one...

Over the last couple of weeks, I've been playing around with my speaker placement.  Nothing radically different, but moving them forward/backwards a foot or two, slightly altering the toe-in, etc.  As of 3 days ago, I finally think I have them where I am getting the best sound; great balance, no noticeable bumps/dips, no resonances, detail in gobs, soundstage, imaging, etc.

At the same time, I had been doing a few transport comparisons, specifically with my new Transporter, Squeezebox 2, Oracle Transport, etc.  Up until about 3 days ago (before the final resting spot of my speakers), I could pretty easily pick out the differences between the Transporter and SB2 when used as a transport into my DAC;  Transporter was more balanced, less harsh, more refined, etc.  However, since finding this optimal spot with my speakers, suddenly, I can't hear significant differences between *any* of my transports...there are some differences I think I hear, but not significant enough that gives me confidence that I'm not imagining the differences.  I'm completely baffled!     If I had been getting less than optimal sound from the speaker placement, I thought that I could explain not hearing differences as having the room mask the differences.  But right now, I'm pretty much getting the best sound I've *ever* gotten, and for the life of me, I'm having trouble hearing differences between gear I could easily hear differences 3 days ago.

On a tangential note, I can definitely still hear a difference between the Transporter's analog out and the Dodson (Dodson is still better, although the margin is quite narrow).  So I don't think it's my hearing that has gone completely bad or my imagination that has gone stagnant.

The main thing I can think of is that prior to 3 days ago, the main difference I was hearing between the Transporter, SB2, and Oracle was the level of harshness heard in cymbals, vocals, and other sounds that easily reveal sibilence and noise.  Perhaps something about where I've placed my speakers has eliminated that specific range of frequencies that would reveal that?

[Daygloworange]

Yeah, that does seem curious. One would think you could pick things out more clearly. Maybe in a few days after you become accustomed to the new placement, you'll find out that you can be able to recognize those differences again. Please update us from time to time on this.

Cheers

[bpape]

Unless the weaknesses of one of the components was matching up with a room response issue so that it was being made more pronounced.

Bryan

[MaxCast]

Do you have a fever?  You feeling ok?

[woodsyi]

Phil,

You must have stumbled onto a good acoustic Feng Shui when you were moving things around.    Actually, there is something to be said about this.  I have noticed that with backwall diffusion, I am getting better sound out of pop rock recordings that I thought were badly engineered before.  I hear that sense of air in treble that I previously associated with audiophile recordings.  I think there is a lot of upper-mid to high frequency standing waves in most rooms and we don't know it -- nothing glaring but enough to make a noticeable difference when you tame it.

[Ethan Winer]

Phil,

> I am getting the best sound; great balance, no noticeable bumps/dips, no resonances, detail in gobs, soundstage, imaging, etc. <

I have a simple explanation. If you now have first reflections under control that reduces greatly distance-related comb filtering effects. So now when you move your head half an inch the frequency response remains much more stable. I recently wrote an article about this, and mentioned it in another thread in a different section at AC, but I believe it applies here as well:

www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html

--Ethan

[PhilNYC]

Phil,

> I am getting the best sound; great balance, no noticeable bumps/dips, no resonances, detail in gobs, soundstage, imaging, etc. <

I have a simple explanation. If you now have first reflections under control that reduces greatly distance-related comb filtering effects. So now when you move your head half an inch the frequency response remains much more stable. I recently wrote an article about this, and mentioned it in another thread in a different section at AC, but I believe it applies here as well:

www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html

--Ethan

Ethan...thanks.  In fact, part of my efforts included putting my listening seat 38% from the back wall per some of your writings.  The final resting spot for the speakers has them positioned at distances from the listening seat that coincide with the Wilson Audio Speaker Placement method.  My system is set up in the middle of the long wall of a 41ft wide room (21ft deep, 8ft tall), so there are no signficant 1st reflection points on the sides.  Am using GIK 244's on the front wall behind the speakers as well as on the back wall behind the listening seat, and 8th Nerve Adapt products all around the room.

[SET Man]

...But right now, I'm pretty much getting the best sound I've *ever* gotten, and for the life of me, I'm having trouble hearing differences between gear I could easily hear differences 3 days ago...

Hey!

 Phil, maybe you are done! I think you might have reached a audio nirvana or at least at the door of it.... Now just sit back than say "Om", press play button and enjoy the music

Take care,
Buddy

[Ethan Winer]

Phil,

> Am using GIK 244's <

Why?

Seriously, you might try hanging a large soft blanket or bath towel over them as a test, to see if that improves imaging even more. The canvas facing on those panels is too reflective IMO to do a great job as front wall treatment.

Other than that it sounds like you're getting great results.

--Ethan

[PhilNYC]

Buddy...I'm definitely really enjoying my system these days!  Audio nirvana?  I dunno...I went to visit someone a few weeks ago who is running a pretty nice system, and based on what I heard there, there are still some areas that I could try to improve (specifically, one more level of refinement in the bass).  But my motivation to tweak or try some new things has definitely dwindled....!

Ethan...the decision to use the GIK panels wasn't motivated by anything more than price and "they do enough" for what I wanted.  Will definitely try the towel idea as an experiment...if it makes a significant difference, then perhaps some RealTraps might be in store for me...

[jimlevitt]

The alternative explanation is that the differences in the electronics are actually quite small - especially compared to those of the speakers, the room, and the speaker/room interaction. If you got the room nailed down, everything else is small beer.

Ethan: could you expand on the differences between the Real Traps, GIK, ReadyTraps, and other commercially available traps that are all based on essentially the same materials?

Thanks,

Jim

[Daygloworange]

I would be inclined to think that removing room related anomalies would aid in being able to pinpoint any minute differences in gear, not the other way around.

Cheers

[PhilNYC]

My expectation was in line with DayGlowOrange's idea...that differences in gear would be more easily heard when the acoustics/placement were perfected.  Bryan's idea that my current placement/acoustics are somehow addressing the specific sonic characteristic that are different between my transports sounds like a plausible idea.

On a related note, after more extended listening, I do hear a difference between my SB2 and my other transports running into the DAC; its very obvious on some recordings (acoustic guitar, softer music) and not so obvious on others (rock, etc).  The differences were much more defined before, but they are still there...

[Glenn K]

The alternative explanation is that the differences in the electronics are actually quite small - especially compared to those of the speakers, the room, and the speaker/room interaction. If you got the room nailed down, everything else is small beer.

Ethan: could you expand on the differences between the Real Traps, GIK, ReadyTraps, and other commercially available traps that are all based on essentially the same materials?

Thanks,

Jim

Hey Jim,

I think you are going to find that on the forums myself and (I think I can speak for Ethan but maybe not) do not find it in good business ethics to do a public comparison and if one does you can bet your bottom dollar that it would be VERY bios. If you want to know those kinds of things it might be best to contact each company and see what they say on the matter. Contacting us though you are going to be hard pressed to find me knocking any company that is truly a acoustic company. We really do not need to do that to sell product. BTW I have a good feeling Ethan does the same.

Glenn

[Daygloworange]

Hey PhilNYC,

I had a feeling things would change given a little time. We could all speculate, and there could be any number of explanations why equipment changes were not so obvious after you made changes ( speaker placement as we've all experimented with, affects the way they sound).

As a long time musician and long time recording entusiast, there are many factors that I've discovered over the years can affect your ability to perceive things. Listener fatigue ( as in your ears are becoming fried from excessive exposure to volume) fatigue ( as in you've been going at it for 16 hours straight and you are exhausted) whether you have a cold ( sinus congestion affects your hearing) and as someone somewhere hear mentioned before, what you've eaten can also have some effect. Mood as well, as it affects ones ability to concentrate and focus.

Your body is an instrument, and a VERY sensitive one. Ask any singer.

Keep us posted in the future as well PhilNYC, this IS real reality TV!

Cheers

[Ethan Winer]

Jim,

> could you expand on the differences between the Real Traps, GIK, ReadyTraps, and other commercially available traps that are all based on essentially the same materials? <

I agree with Glenn that it's not good business to slam a competitor's product, in public or in a private email. Glenn makes a fine product at its price point, and more than a few times I've sent people to GIK when it's clear they can't afford enough RealTraps to do what's needed in their room. Glenn definitely has the "bang for the buck" down to a science.

That said, you are correct that most panels are based on similar (though not identical) absorption materials, but that doesn't mean they're equivalent. For example, the Ready stuff you mentioned is 703 rigid fiberglass wrapped in fabric. We use 705 which absorbs better at bass frequencies (and costs us twice as much). We also add a limp mass membrane behind the front fabric which further increases bass absorption, while being semi-reflective at mid and high frequencies. This lets you put enough of them in a room to truly solve the bass problems, but without killing all the mids and highs as can happen with foam and plain fabric-wrapped 703.

The curve of absorption versus frequency in MiniTraps and MondoTraps is intentional and very specific. Plain rigid fiberglass or mineral wool does not have this curve, nor does any other commercial acoustic panel I'm aware of. So while you can definitely make an improvement with almost any absorber, that doesn't mean you'll get the same or even similar results when viewed as a system, so to speak. For example, I have 40 RealTraps in my fairly large living room and it's the best room you'll ever hear. Had I treated the room with that many panels from most other companies, the bass might be improved but the highs would be absorbed way too much. Or maybe not enough. This is a huge feature!

Equally important are appearance, build quality, mounting flexibility, and ease of installation. But you won't know that until you see one of our panels in person side by side with other such products. Part of the problem is acoustic treatment still gets little regard so it's rarely in stores. If you were to see these products side by side, the difference in fit and finish, and quality of construction are very apparent. I'll venture that the metal work alone in one MiniTrap costs us twice as much as the total materials in most other bass trap products. The metal frame we use is not only cosmetic - it supports the panel to keep it from bending and sagging no matter how it is mounted. There's also a lot of "connectivity" on the rear to allow mounting easily in a number of ways. There are threaded inserts that accept 8-32 screws for stand mounting, and a series of slots allow attaching wires in ten different places for hanging either vertically or horizontally. These slots also accept a radiator hose clamp for mounting easily on microphone stands or pole supports. But again, you wouldn't know that unless you had one in hand to compare. Our goal is to make bass traps that work as well as possible, that you'd be proud to put in your living room, and sell them for a fair price. Versus bass traps that can be sold for as little as possible. And not just bass traps, but also models that do absorb mid and high frequencies as much as possible when that's more appropriate.

Perhaps most important of all is the level of technical advice a vendor can offer. Acoustic treatment is relatively low tech, and it seems these days everyone and his brother is an "acoustics expert" who feels qualified to sell "bass traps" and offer acoustics advice. I've been a professional audio engineer (and professional musician) for going on 40 years. I've had more than 70 technical articles published in pro audio and computer magazines, and I understand all aspects of audio science, not just acoustics. I help customers all the time with things that go far beyond what products to buy and where to put them. A few weeks ago I spent an hour on the phone with a customer helping him get the R+D room analysis software configured and working with his laptop sound card. I also explained to him how to interpret the results, and have exchanged numerous emails since as he sends me his data files and I show him what to look for. I help people design their rooms, determine the best speaker and seating positions, explain how to find reflection points, and answer endless newbie questions as patiently as I can. And so forth. I even advise people on how best to use other treatment they already own in conjunction with ours. That happens a lot! It's very common for someone to have a bunch of corner foam, then realize its shortcomings and come to RealTraps to take their room to the next level.

There's no doubt that most absorber panels, if thick enough, can serve as bass traps. Heck, you can get plenty of bass trapping from a bag of fiberglass batts left in the plastic wrapper. I am serious! I even recommend unopened fiberglass batts in my Acoustics FAQ for people on a tight budget. But that doesn't make it the best acoustic treatment solution, nor would most people want to see that in their listening room. Cheap treatment is great for college kids on a budget. But I'd expect serious audiophiles - folks who gladly spend thousands of dollars to get that last 5 percent - to be more concerned with performance (and yes, appearance) than buying the cheapest thing available.

I've been really pleased over the past few years to see folks finally start to understand that having good room acoustics is more important than pretty much anything else, including even which loudspeakers you use. This is a big step up in sophistication from the "gear" mindset that obsesses about things that don't matter at all like AC power cords and ultra-high sample rates. But public perception and conventional wisdom still have a long way to go. Many people now realize they need to tame their acoustics, but most aren't yet educated enough to know that acoustic panels vary even more than amplifiers and CD players.

I saw a post recently in one of the home recording type newsgroups that typifies my point. I don't have the post handy so I'll paraphrase, but it was very close to this:

Okay, I know I need to treat my little bedroom studio, so I went to eBay and bought the cheapest thing that claimed to be a bass trap.

In this case he bought corner foam from Foam By Mail, and it's a shame he wasted his money because that stuff is all but useless. But at least he knew he needed bass traps! This is a huge improvement from even three years ago. By the way, my reply was, "Would you buy a microphone or loudspeaker on that basis?"



--Ethan

[bpape]

Just as a clarification...

When the 244 panels are placed behind the speakers, they are primarily acting to deal with SBIR issues - not as general front wall reflection control.  The membrane action does an excellent job for this application.  Even with it though, there is a reasonable amount of mid/hf absorbtion - it's just tamed a bit to fit better with the multiple HF only absorbers that most rooms have including carpet, drapes, etc.

Bryan

[Jim N.]

I am a convert to fixing the room. I have some GIK panels (first side reflection points and behind the listener's head) and 8th Nerve corners and seams. They have made a significant improvement, taming the harshness along with helping boom-be-gone. After speaker and sitting position placement room treatment has made the biggest improvement for me. My listening room had myriad problems and the treatments really helped.

[bpape]

Absolutely Jim.

Always do the free things first.  Get the seat and the speakers in the correct position.  THEN you know what the real issues are that you have to deal with and how to address the.

But after that, $ for $ whether you use our product, someone elses, or a combination, treating the room is the best improvement for money spent in pretty much any situation.

Bryan

[mixsit]

Phil,

> Am using GIK 244's <

Why?

Seriously, you might try hanging a large soft blanket or bath towel over them as a test, to see if that improves imaging even more. The canvas facing on those panels is too reflective IMO to do a great job as front wall treatment.

Other than that it sounds like you're getting great results.

--Ethan

Ethan, that seems curious. Don't the mini traps have the foil coating on the reflective side and are ok (that side out.. ) except for first-reflection points?
Wayne