[Spirit]

Some of us have been debating (yelling, taunting, cursing...whatever) over the last few days about the effect of cables, power cords and AC conditioners.
Comments have been made by some that all of this is voodoo. 
I dropped in to one of my favourite higher end Hifi boutiques here in Toronto and was able to have a few quiet moments with the owner who is an extremely knowledgable audiophile.  We started talking about this AC power question.  He pilled out of a desk drawer a small device called an AudioPrism NoiseSniffer.  Here is a portion of the description from the AudioPrism site:
"The Noise Sniffer ™ is a unique device developed
to detect noise traveling on the power line. Using
an internal circuit that converts line noise to a signal
that will drive a small speaker, the Noise Sniffer ™
makes it possible to "listen" to the EMI and RFI noise
that is almost always present on power lines"
He plugged this little unit straight into the wall and this little sucker started oozing with screeching noise.  He unplugged it and walked over to one of AC conditioners that he uses in his shop and plugged into that unit and - dead quiet-.
So what does this mean?  I am not really sure.  Anyone want to give me a scientific answer as to how this relates to sound quality.

[lonewolfny42]

Here's a link for the Noise Sniffer ™.....
His demo was showing you the EMI and RFI that is present on many electrical power lines.
Did he say he could loan it to you to try at home and "listen" to your power grid ?

[Spirit]

Here's a link for the Noise Sniffer ™.....
His demo was showing you the EMI and RFI that is present on many electrical power lines.
Did he say he could loan it to you to try at home and "listen" to your power grid ?

Thanks LW,
I know that I was listening to the EMI and RFI in the line, but I am trying to understand if those nuisances actually affect sound quality.  As you know, there are those in the Circle that say that conditioners are of no use.  Logic tells me that the conditioner was eliminating the noise.  So where is the argument that these conditioners are a waste of $?

[lonewolfny42]

So where is the argument that these conditioners are a waste of $?

Won't hear it from me....living in a populated area, a conditioner cleans up the power, making what I hear playing on my system, sound much better.

Got another link for you....balanced power.....

[LightFire]

Some of us have been debating (yelling, taunting, cursing...whatever) over the last few days about the effect of cables, power cords and AC conditioners.
Comments have been made by some that all of this is voodoo. 
I dropped in to one of my favourite higher end Hifi boutiques here in Toronto and was able to have a few quiet moments with the owner who is an extremely knowledgable audiophile.  We started talking about this AC power question.  He pilled out of a desk drawer a small device called an AudioPrism NoiseSniffer.  Here is a portion of the description from the AudioPrism site:
"The Noise Sniffer ™ is a unique device developed
to detect noise traveling on the power line. Using
an internal circuit that converts line noise to a signal
that will drive a small speaker, the Noise Sniffer ™
makes it possible to "listen" to the EMI and RFI noise
that is almost always present on power lines"
He plugged this little unit straight into the wall and this little sucker started oozing with screeching noise.  He unplugged it and walked over to one of AC conditioners that he uses in his shop and plugged into that unit and - dead quiet-.
So what does this mean?  I am not really sure.  Anyone want to give me a scientific answer as to how this relates to sound quality.

You don't need "purifiers". The power supply circuitry of your sound system already do it for you.

[lonewolfny42]

See....it didn't take long for someone to come along and say you don't need one...but I'd try one....see if you hear any difference in your system.

You be the judge......

[lonewolfny42]

Anyone want to give me a scientific answer as to how this relates to sound quality.

You could post this in the Lab Circle....check with Occam...he's your man....

[Doublej]

Listening - DON'T DO IT

It just opens up a huge can of worms. Suddenly you will be hearing differences between cables, cable connectors, cable orientation, treated and untreated CDs, amplifiers, CD players (it's all zero and ones right?), electrical outlets, things you put your components on, things you put on your components, etc., etc. etc. but people will tell you that your brain is fooling you into believing that there are differences when in fact there are none.

So why waste your time? Listen to what the experts say (how do I get to be one of them?) and eat your vegetables because good health is paramount to good hearing.

[JLM]

Wiring:

Just go with Signal Cable, Element Cable, or Blue Jean Cable stuff.  These (by audiophile standards, very affordable brands) follow Jon Risch recipes (he moderates the Audio Asylum cable forum and is well respected).  Would more expensive stuff sound different?  (yes); better?  (that's subjective to the ear and equipment involved).  IMO until your system budget exceeds $10k the money is better spent elsewhere (if you're situation is like most, in the room itself).

Conditioning:

Site dependent.  I've heard it make a difference (old light industrial neighborhood), but never where I've lived (50 year old suburb with horrible wiring, 20 year old suburb, new country house).   A friend brought one to the 50 year old house and it barely made a difference to me, the money could be much better spent elsewhere.  Borrow one or take one home on loan and try it.  Before you buy search around here for ideas, there's several low cost options available.

[Scott F.]

I realize the DeZorel name comes with pretty heavy baggage around here but they do have a nice spec sheet that explains graphically what a power conditioner does.
http://www.dezorel.co.yu/new/Download/files/techsheet.pdf

When you see that a decenet power contioner filters out more than 18db of high frequency hash and garbage riding the mains at 6k and more than 22db at 12k, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this thing is going to have an effect on the sound of your stereo.

You're distance from the power plant or your location on the 'grid' has less to do with power quality than you think. I live about 7 miles downstream (grid-wise) from my local power plant. I live out in the boonies. There ain't nothin around me but residential homes. There isn't a single manufacturing plant between me and the power plant, nor is there a plant within (probably) 20 grid miles.

What happens when I pulll my (many) power contitioners out of my systems? The soundstage collapses, imaging gets wider, bass becomes muddier, the highs loose definition, the background noise floor goes up significantly, in short, my systems sound like shit without a filter. Oh, and yes, on my HT, the blacks are blacker, the colors more vibrant, better imiage definition, yada yada.

The people that have posted can say what they want but noise riding the Grid is easily measurable with the right instrumentation. That noise sniffer just demonstrated that fact. This noise comes through and is heard in the audible frequency bands. Filtering this noise out will most definately have an audible effect on your system providing your system is of decent resolution. And yes, its absolutely measureable. When it comes to audio gear, I've yet to hear a piece of gear come through the house that hasn't benefited from one of the line filters I use.

Look at it this way, if noise riding the mains weren't an issue, why would a company line Corcom (who makes industrial filters) even be in business selling boatloads of filters. (oh, if you look hard at their filter designs and specs, they are amazingly close to those we use in hi-end audio).

[seasterl]

I think it is more system-dependent than anything else, just like much of what we hear in our systems is room-dependent.  Not only can there be more noise in the line at one house compared to a friend's house on the other side of town, but our components can also emit EMI and also become sources of noise.  How closely each component is placed to each other and how well they are shielded, as well as type of interconnects used can make a difference.  (Want a problem that can drive you bats:  turn on just your amp and listen for a radio station as the tubes become minature antennae.)  We, a person can drive himself crazy thinking about all of this.  I have an audiophile friend that doesn't believe in conditioners and cables and he enjoyed great hifi sound.  Another friend down the road can't believe how much effect his new Stereovox i/c made in his system.  Everyone can't afford to buy the best conditioners, power cords, i/c, speaker cables, and isolation devices.  So the best thing to do leave those things for last (once you're settled on the main components) and try changing one thing at a time.  Maybe focus on just conditioners first, then power cords, then i/c, etc.  You'll learn quickly if you'll hear a difference with your particular setup and room acoustics.  You might have clean power coming to your outlet yet have noisy components and need to focus more on separation.  Then, a nice rack would be more valuable to you then $2k worth of conditioners.  If you have noisy power, one nice CD player sitting beside a nice integrated amp, then you can go cheap on the shelf and get a nice conditioner.  If you have a TT, then you may need a nice rack, etc.  You see where I'm going with this.  Of course, if you feel your have clean power already, you may need a conditioner anyway just so you can increase the number of outlets going to all of your components.  Getting back to your original question / comment, there are viable reasons why many folk don't hear any differences in conditioners or even need them, but for some they are necessities.  For me, I wanted to cover all my bases and just bought a decent conditioner that gave me all the outlets I needed, as well as decent (not the best) power cords, i/c, speaker cables, etc.  If I ever get in the mood, I might focus on comparing different i/c or whatever, but I know it'll come at a very high cost to try everything.  (Sorry for rambling on!)

[konut]

The point that needs to be made is that the design and implimentation of the power supply IN EACH COMPONENT YOU OWN will determine your need for treatment/filtration. Some are great, some are crap, and most are in between.

[PhilNYC]

Here's a link for the Noise Sniffer ™.....
His demo was showing you the EMI and RFI that is present on many electrical power lines.
Did he say he could loan it to you to try at home and "listen" to your power grid ?

Btw - I have one of these Noise Sniffers if anyone in the NJ/NY area wants to try it...

[dado5]

You don't need "purifiers". The power supply circuitry of your sound system already do it for you.

I agree with this in principle, but my experience tells me different.

I built a single stage SET headphone amp. I listened to it alone, through an Adcom AC Enhancer and a balanced power conversion transformer. All three sounded different and I preferred the sound without any conditioning. The only measured difference was a 4 vdc drop at the plate with the balanced transformer filter connected.

My power supply is very well filtered (CLCLCRC - it is a headphone amp after all) and I live in the country. I assume my feed is not very noisy and my DC is normally very low ripple (I hear no hum whatever). Why the difference? Current draw maybe? My imagination is a distinct possibility but I would think it would err in favor of the corrective devices, not against them. Who knows?

I can say for sure that two different approaches to conditioning had a sonic effect on a well designed (I built it so it has to be  ) power supply.  For the worse in my estimation. Beyond that I can only speculate.

[2 channel man]

Well I'll start off with I own 2 different AC line conditioners  an INOUYE S.P.L.C. which uses SOLEN air core inductors inside it and
also I have a SIMA LF2 which employs several ferrite rings inside (like a CHANG on steroids ) they sound different from one and other
come to think they also both were completely different than my first AC line cleaner a ADCOM 535 or 515 I think was
the model .All 3 line conditioners are audible in my system , and not just to my ears ask my friend who owned the CHANG we could detect audible differences  between all 4 units . As for interconnects Kimber PBJ I think are my favorite inexpensive cable not as good as my VAN DEN HUL D102mkIII (and at the price shouldn't be as good) but still really good . Lastly the AC in my area is always better late at night or on the weekend when there is not as much on the grid .

[JLM]

I wonder how many audiophiles spend thousands to clean up the A/C when the 40 year old freezer in the neighbor's garage (or something similar) is the culprit?  Again, IMO it's a location specific issue.  Just try borrowing a conditioner to see if it helps. 

BTW I use cryo'd plenum rated single strand CAT5 for speaker cable (that cost all of $20 from a group buy a few years ago).  I know heavier gauge (16 - 18) would help bass output and I have such a pair of Element Cables that do provide more bass but it's a convenience issue for right now and I'm not suffering.

[Occam]

........
You don't need "purifiers". The power supply circuitry of your sound system already do it for you.

No, they generally don't, at least not adequately. Your lack of empirical curiosity is appalling. Like Athena, your conclusions spring fully formed from your head. But sadly, you are no Zeus. Are you skirvis is disguise? If wishes were fishes......


To everyone else -

I heard a PS Audio Duet Power Center yesterday -
http://www.psaudio.com/products/duet_power_center.asp
Its $100 dollars off this month @$299. Its really quite impressive, and will run a whole system (though possibly not a 250wpc+ amp). The conditioners I build are (IMO) better, but if I sold them, they'd be more expensive.
Take one home making sure you've a return privilege. If you don't hear an improvement, or feel the improvement isn't worth it, return it. Heck, you may have pristine mains power. Or you may have perfect components just like LightFire.

But please, please, form your opinions by actually listening and evaluating, rather than pulling your conclusions out your arse.

FWIW,
Paul

[Kevin Haskins]

Results certainly vary.... as do explanations for them.   

I'm at a loss to explain the subjective differences in terms of engineering principles.   I'm not one of those people who deny all subjective experience, I just prefer to remain sceptical of it as a good data source when trying to engineer something.   When making a personal purchase it is high on my priority list though.   

My personal experience is that sometimes equipment sounds worse with a line filter attached.   Why.... there could be some kind of resonance between the primary of the power supply & the filter network, it could just sound better with HF noise in the circuit, it could just be my imagination.        Anyway... it is one of those things I experiment with to find my own personal preference for a given piece of equipment in a given room.    I don't put much more thought into it and put the situation down to one of those inexplicable features of the universe.      

Balanced power units make a lot of sense and I've had much more success with them rather than simple L-C filter networks.

[Steve Eddy]

Hello, Kevin.

Results certainly vary.... as do explanations for them.   

I'm at a loss to explain the subjective differences in terms of engineering principles.   I'm not one of those people who deny all subjective experience, I just prefer to remain sceptical of it as a good data source when trying to engineer something.   When making a personal purchase it is high on my priority list though.   

My personal experience is that sometimes equipment sounds worse with a line filter attached.   Why.... there could be some kind of resonance between the primary of the power supply & the filter network, it could just sound better with HF noise in the circuit, it could just be my imagination.     

What a breath of fresh air!

It would really be nice to see more people take such a humble and rational approach to such things as you do here.

se

[nonoise]

My experience is quite limited compared to the rest of you but here goes my take.
*Power cords do make a difference: try to get one that is the same gauge as the Romex wiring in your house. I've had soundstages shrink and dynamics go down with anything less. They can be found or made quite cheaply.
*Use hospital grade outlets: they provide a great grip and are made so much better than the crap presently in your house.
*Try not to use any power conditioners or filters or surge protectors as they simply get in the way. I've only tried a few and every one of them stifled the sound in one way or another.
*Just keep it as simple and well built as you can and your system will shine as intended.

Tim