Tube Recitification...a vote?

Normanality · « **Reply #20 on:** 27 Oct 2006, 01:39 pm »

I've only had my new Tube Rectified Modwright Sony 9100ES for a few days and only one word comes to mind.

Wow.

Nice job Dan! The improvement over the 999ES is substantial.

modwright · « **Reply #21 on:** 28 Oct 2006, 11:33 pm »

Thank you Norm, I am glad that you are enjoying the new 9100ES. We took two units to the show and they both sold and with a unit being sent to Bob Levi for review, we have only one or two left. Anyone interested in purchasing a new Sony 9100ES with tube rectified supply and clock upgrade, please contact us right away!

Take care,

Dan

AB · « **Reply #22 on:** 29 Oct 2006, 07:36 pm »

I bought one of the 9100es Dan had brought to RMAF. I liked what I heard in his room and figured the new tubed PSU on the Sony would allow me a preview of what a tube rectified SWL would sound like without having to send mine out to Dan for the upgrade. I really didn't need a new CDP but I trust Dan's taste and figured if it wasn't to my liking I could have him swap out the tubed PSU for a diode based one. Dan also mentioned the PSU had been improved beyond just the 5ar4 so I would be hearing a unit much upgraded from my SWL in any case.

I have been playing the Sony for the past week. The tubes Dan had in the unit were two very nice mid '50s GE Tung Sol 5687 black plates. I have had a set of these in my SWL but have gone back and forth with a cryoed version of the same tubes that have eventually become my favorite tubes for the SWL. The cryoed version have deeper bass and slightly extended highs but have tended to be pretty microphonic.

I have been comparing the Sony to two other CDPs I have here, a Parts Connexion "Ultimate" Denon 3910 with Amperex 6922 PQ white label tubes and a modded Jolida JD100 with a pair of GE 5 star 5751 tubes.

The Denon is a very clean, detailed and tight sounding player. The JD100 is dead quiet and has a bit more fullness/ bloom than the Denon but its soundstage is less deep and less wide. The Denon is not dead quiet, in fact it has a noticeable PS hum that can be heard on quiet passages and this, I would say, is its greatest weakness.

The Denon has become my favorite player for acoustic and jazz. The Jolida seems to play rock and roll better. The Denon has great detail but it can be a bit harsh with rock.

Dan and I had spoken about the new tubed PSU and he had explained why he felt it was better than the SS version. He mentioned a deeper, wider more 3d soundstage from the 5ar4 and a greater musicality with only a slight compromise in the very top end. But I hate compromises, especially compromises that hit the top end. I love my cymbals...

As I played my first CD on the Sony all three points Dan had made to me at RMAF were audible. The SS was wider, it was deeper, the highs were ever so slightly laid back and attacks were less in your face. But the unit still sounded 99% like my SWL. The tight very deep bass was there and the dynamics, which I cannot live without, were even better than with my SWL.

But the rolled off highs bothered me so after about 5 hours and several CDs I swapped out Dan's tubes for my Cryoed ones. The accessibility of the tubes on the Sony makes swapping tubes so easy. I love that.

The cryoed tubes sounded just as I expected. The highs were back to my liking and the bass was even deeper - maybe too deep? The soundstage was crazy wide - on some CDs it wrapped all the way around to the back of the room so I added some Herbies tube dampers. This brought the SS back to only fantastic rather than silly proportions.

The Sony is dead quiet. It has detail equal to the Denon. Its SS is bigger and more 3d and it is more musical. It plays R and R without compression and acoustic jazz and vocals are as clear and as accurate as I have heard.

For example, the vocals on Alison Krauss' "New Favorite" has a substantial amount of reverb added. The reverb on the Denon makes for a nice room ambiance around the speakers but with the Sony the room is in the room -the reverb fills the whole listening room and the vocal sits, 3 feet in front of my speakers in a pin point image. Awesome. The bass on this track adds to this effect and the Sony just puts it perfectly in the SS and still manages to fill the room too. The Jolida just played the music...nice music but...

The other track that really had the Sony winning the compo was Vienna Teng's "The Atheist Christmas Carol". In the opening bars a triangle is paired with piano. This triangle is, at least to my ears, very, very subtle. The Sony reproduced both instruments in a very balanced and clear way. The brushed snare on this cut sounds just right too.

As for playing the rock and roll stuff, Dan's Sony nails it. Loud, complex nasty Cds sound great. Examples? Bob Mould's "Body of Song" sounds great on it. This CD is a piece of mix art. There are so many layers to the tracks on this album that I can hardly listen to it without finding myself concentrating on the way deep tracks rather than the music. Well the Sony pulls everything out but still manages to sound musical and not clinical.

Switching between the Sony and the Jolida was pretty interesting. The Jolida is a very nice CDP but when compared to the Sony there just is no denying its limitations. The JD100's sound stage is 40% the Sony's. It's depth - maybe 20%. The JD100's images aren't sitting in space but back along the plane of the speakers - along with most everything else. The music is all there but there is no room ambiance, no realness.

I am going to swap Dan's non cryoed tubes back into the Sony. The cryoed tubes might have too much bass and I am not sure the more forward highs these have make for the best balance. The non cryoed tubes put the cymbals back in the SS where they rightly belong. The cryoed tubes have the cymbals outside and up front for a not so accurate image.

That's all the changes I will try with the Sony. It's doing everything better or as well as any CDP I have heard recently.

Oh, I forgot. This unit lacks the clock upgrade. I guess I will have Dan add it. It can't hurt, right? Except for the units time away from its new home.

Normanality · « **Reply #23 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 05:52 am »

Thanks AB, you pretty much summed up exactly what I was saying. Wow!

I agree with your assessment on the Tung Sols. I just put in my ICBM tubes (Bendix 6900's) and the detail is crazy good if that is a proper adjective.

modwright · « **Reply #24 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 04:53 pm »

Thank you all for your feedback and support. I agree that the tube-rectified supply is well worthwhile and will become part of the standard mod. This will add some to the cost, but we still have one or two new units available for $3500 that include the tube rectified power supply at no additional charge.

Take care,

Dan W.

Vicks7 · « **Reply #25 on:** 3 Nov 2006, 12:09 pm »

Can anyone recommend a place where I can source these Bendix tubes for the Modwright? They sound intriguing.
Many thanks
James

AB · « **Reply #26 on:** 4 Nov 2006, 12:12 am »

Here's an ebay auction for a pair.

I know nothing of the seller or these tubes. This post is in no way a recommendation of either....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120048519864

MUstageFan · « **Reply #27 on:** 4 Nov 2006, 08:30 am »

AB, Normanality,Vicks7

The Bendix 6900's are nice that for sure,But wait until you try http://www.madisound.com/pdf/mundorfcaps.pdf[/url] the Mundorf Silver in Oil caps! The best {$100.00 +the $$ forDan's labor} extra you can do to the Modwright SACD Player.And if you want to take it a small step further thrown in a Quad set of 220 ohm AN Tantalum grid stoppers. The sonics are very detailed yet super smooth with great Macro&Micro dynamics.
I am really looking forward to getting the tube rectified power supply

AB · « **Reply #28 on:** 4 Nov 2006, 09:38 pm »

Hmmm. More mods to consider. I will ask Dan about these. Upgrading grid stoppers? Hadn't thought of that.

A quick update regarding the Sony, it's either broken in a bit more or something else has happened because the last few nights the sound has become even more impressive.

Let me explain...

I was into audio when I was a much younger guy and had a nice McIntosh pre, amp and tuner plus a Thorens TT and a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls. I listened to all the good stuff - Genesis, Yes, early Phil Collins, ELP, King Crimson, Adrian Belew, Peter Gabriel... you get the idea.

I stepped away from music for a fairly long time and lost track of all my old albums. So, over the past 15 years I have been replacing all the old music on CD.

But I have never been very happy about the way these new CDs/ old music sounded on any system I had. The music never sounded as good as it did on my old system back in the late '70s and '80s. The dynamics were missing, the drums and bass were flat and lifeless. It all just sounded so thin and digital. Painful.

I eventually gave up on these CDs and stopped listening to them.

Well, the magic has returned. The Modwright 9100es makes these CDs sound like my old albums sounded. It's a revelation. Seriously. Listening to this music the way I remember it has taken me back in time.

For years I wondered if maybe I was remembering it all wrong. Maybe "Trick of the Tail' sounded like crap back then too. Maybe just being 20 years old had a way of making everything better, including prog rock.
Sounds reasonable. But no, early Genesis really was that great. I just hadn't heard it reproduced right in 30 years. The drums are back, man.

I am having a blast listening to these CDs. Heck, I am going to buy a bunch more too.

But what about my plans to buy a TT? I have been thinking about it pretty seriously but I am going to have re think this. Well, at least postpone it.

Normanality · « **Reply #29 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 04:28 am »

Quote from: AB on 4 Nov 2006, 12:12 am

Here's an ebay auction for a pair.

I know nothing of the seller or these tubes. This post is in no way a recommendation of either....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120048519864

I've dealt with this seller. A++ Bendix are not cheap.

Normanality · « **Reply #30 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 04:35 am »

Quote from: MUstageFan on 4 Nov 2006, 08:30 am

AB, Normanality,Vicks7

The Bendix 6900's are nice that for sure,But wait until you try http://www.madisound.com/pdf/mundorfcaps.pdf[/url] the Mundorf Silver in Oil caps! The best {$100.00 +the $$ forDan's labor} extra you can do to the Modwright SACD Player.And if you want to take it a small step further thrown in a Quad set of 220 ohm AN Tantalum grid stoppers. The sonics are very detailed yet super smooth with great Macro&Micro dynamics.
I am really looking forward to getting the tube rectified power supply

Dan, care to chime in please? Is it possible to improve even more?

AB, I'm experiencing the same results as you. I've let the unit burn in continuously over the last week and it keeps improving. Detail is impressive and the soundstage is deep and wide with instruments properly separated. The background is absolutely quiet. Dynamics are unbelievable on my Innersound Eros speakers. I'm enjoying older CD's too.

modwright · « **Reply #31 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 05:55 pm »

Hi guys, I have used the Mundorfs in a past mod project per customer's request - Mustagefan I believe

. To be honest, I don't know that I ever heard them to their fullest extent because they took so long to burn in. My impression was a warmer sound, but that is about all that I recall. We use the Sonicaps because I feel that they are as neutral as possible.

RE grid stoppers, we do use 220ohm grid stoppers, but not the AN Tants. We use Dale/Vishay metal film R's in this position. I have yet to really experiment with this. The tube rectifier however, is HUGE in my opinion. I am not downplaying the other mods at all, I simply really haven't had the time to properly evaluate them.

Thanks,

Dan

Normanality · « **Reply #32 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 06:32 pm »

Thanks Dan. I agree, the tube rectification is a leap forward sonically. It's difficult for me to explain the improvements.
As good as the detail and soundstage was on my 999ES, using the same tubes on my rectified 9100ES offers better
timbre and decay than I've ever heard, even on vinyl years ago.

AB · « **Reply #33 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 10:51 pm »

Something else to mention about the Sony.

These old CDs have a much lower gain than newer CDs. I think that's the best way to put it.
So playing one of these Genesis CDs at normal listening volume has the pre at 12 oclock. A newer CD has the pre at about 9 oclock for the same volume.

With the Sony this is not a problem - it is so quiet I cannot hear any background PSU noise at 12 oclock. With either of the other CDPs I can hear PSU hum at 12 oclock. I hate PSU hum. On some CDs I can make believe it's part of the music - you know, guitar amp hum, etc. but that's not possible on the acoustic stuff.
In that case I tell myself it's was hot in the studio and they had a fan running.

With the Sony there is only blackness in the background, deep abyssal blackness.

I played a few SACDs last night. Holy crap! These sound like vinyl. Pure and simple. No digital glare at all, greater dynamic range, smooth as glass. I hesitate to listen to these more - I may not be able to listen to CDs afterwards.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #34 on:** 5 Nov 2006, 11:16 pm »

Quote

RE grid stoppers, we do use 220ohm grid stoppers, but not the AN Tants. We use Dale/Vishay metal film R's in this position. I have yet to really experiment with this.

The choice of grid stops will always be an ongoing discussion. When looking for a truly linear result, the RN's are the way to go. Many people will argue that they are not "non-inductive" designs but this has more to do with the leads than the makeup. As long as the leads are kept short as possible, inductance is not a measurable issue. I have used the RN's as grid stoppers in tube amps as well with great results.
In my opinion, the Dale/Vishay RN resistors are one of the most versatile components around as long as their maximum 1 watt rating will work in the application.

Obviously, the tube rectifier is much more significant than the choice of grid resistors. I can't wait to get one of these units in.

modwright · « **Reply #35 on:** 6 Nov 2006, 07:15 pm »

Okay, the votes are in and we have decided to include tube rectification in the following products:

SWP 9.0SE standalone phono = $2995. Internal PS with tube rectification.
SWLP 9.0SE Preamp with internal phono and external PS = $3995 (SS supply); $4495 (tube-rectified supply).

The SWL 9.0SE will remain SS rectified and $2495.

Sony 9100ES Signaure Truth Mods (see review: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue28/modwright9100.htm) = $2500 (SS rect.); $2850 (tube rect.). We also have one or two units available (as of Nov. 6) in black, fully modified and INCLUDING the tube-rectified supply, for $3500 + shipping.

Thanks,

Dan W.

MarkR7 · « **Reply #36 on:** 12 Nov 2006, 12:05 am »

Quote from: tvad4 on 11 Nov 2006, 11:55 pm

I just finished a listening session with a Modwright Sony 999ES powered by the original power supply and then powered with the new tube rectified power supply. The player has the Platinum Signature mod with the clock upgrade. All the power cords were consistent during the comparison. Both supplies were wamred up for 30 minutes before listening. The tube rectified supply has only 50 hours on it. The original power supply has hundreds of hours.

Simply said, the new tube rectified power supply makes music. Better extension, air, speed, dynamics and naturalness. This $500 upgrade is a no-brainer for Modwright owners.

Go get you one!

Hey Grant,

Was that with a stock 5AR4 tube or one of them fancy NOS ones?

Cheers!

mattybumpkin · « **Reply #37 on:** 15 Nov 2006, 07:10 pm »

Tvad4,

Definitely better extension w/ the rectification? There was talk that rectification would impact extension negatively. This is good news then.

Thnx,

Matty

SCompRacer · « **Reply #38 on:** 19 Nov 2006, 04:39 pm »

My good friend Normanality brought the tube rectified power supply from his new 9100ES over to try. I have Norm's old Platinum Signature Truth (with clock) modded 999ES with the SS power supply. I immediately noticed increased separation and detail with the tubed PS. Norm had a NOS Mullard tube in it.

I can't afford a 9100ES but the tubed PS will be a worthy significant upgrade for my 999ES. Great job Dan!

EDIT: Update. Looks like I can swing a 9100ES with a tube PS so I cancelled the tube PS for the 999ES.

Normanality · « **Reply #39 on:** 20 Nov 2006, 02:04 pm »

Quote from: SCompRacer on 19 Nov 2006, 04:39 pm

My good friend Normanality brought the tube rectified power supply from his new 9100ES over to try. I have Norm's old Platinum Signature Truth (with clock) modded 999ES with the SS power supply. I immediately noticed increased separation and detail with the tubed PS. Norm had a NOS Mullard tube in it.

I can't afford a 9100ES but the tubed PS will be a worthy significant upgrade for my 999ES. Great job Dan!

It was quite remarkable actually. There were 4 of us at the time enjoying a listening session at Rich's place.
Norah Jones was doing what she does best. We played a few of her songs, then swapped in the new tube rectified
power supply. Her voice stepped out away from the speakers even more! Everyone noticed it immediately.
Resolution was improved also.