Lack Of Lows

Antman27 · « **on:** 22 Sep 2006, 07:24 pm »

Hello all I Hate to bring this up again BUT wanted your thoughts
My Paradigm 40's seam like they have a lack of lows
I am driveing them with a Denon AVR 3805 - NOW I am only speaking of 2 ch listning with NO sub
I am comparing this set up with one I have & work that is
Paradigm SA-35s driven by a Carver Pre amp tuner PSC-60 with Crown D-75s amps
I would think the lows should be comperable from the 40's to the 35's ??

Since the 35's are inwalls are the walls giving me the better sounding lows Or is it the amp/ pre amp set up
Here are the links to the 2 speakers
Thanks for your thoughts

http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteReferenceProduct/RModels/StudioSeries/StudioSpecs.html

http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteReferenceProduct/RModels/InWall/SA_Specs.htm

I have played with a bunch of speaker cables & nothing improved the Lows

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 09:42 pm »

I think you will get some boost from the wall or ceiling as that is a room boundary. Isn't that the Allison effect?

Also, from the specs, the inwall speaker uses two 210mm drivers whereas the 40 uses two 178mm drivers. I think that calculates out to be a 39% increase in driver area. Don't know about the length of travel of the driver.

Finally, what are the sizes of the two rooms? If the office is smaller than the room the 40s are in, then I think, with the other two facts considered, the inwalls will be perceived as having more bass.

Jason1 · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 10:02 pm »

Larger (presumably) equal throw drivers, using the wall as a baffle (no baffle step loss), translates to much greater bass capabilities.

Yes, the Crown amp most likely has better bass control, but switching it to the 40s wont make up the difference.

bpape · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 10:51 pm »

Taking a different tack...

I'd bet that it's the Denon. IMO, their bottom end is soft, mushy, etc. I'd bet if you brought home the Crown and used the pre-outs of the Denon, your bottom end would be fine.

Just my 2 cents.

Bryan

GHM · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 11:44 pm »

Instead of beating around the bush. I'll get right to it. You need to find another pair of speakers that will give what you thirst for. Yesterday I spent 3 hours playing with Paradigm 40v3s. Equipment used was a Bryston 4b SST, Bryston BP 6 preamp and a Mac Cd player. We also played some music off the wireless server. I forgot to add we played a little vinyl as well.

These speakers had no REAL bass... It just wasn't there. Once the Seismic 12 sub was turned on the bottom filled out. It didn't blend well though. The amplifier can only do so much..it's not going to bring in lows that the speaker can't pass from the start. It's time to try something different my friend.

Good listening

JLM · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 12:05 am »

Paradigm's specifications seem a bit fishy too. By their numbers the Studio 20 and 40 have the same rated low frequency extension (36 Hz) with the same tweeter and midwoofer, but the 40 is bigger and adds a woofer.

It's hard to believe anyone would be complaining of lack of bass if it was flat to 36 Hz. More

It's also hard to believe the small standmount Studio 20 is flat to 36 Hz.

I heard the Studio 20 years ago versus the Active 20. What a marvelous demonstration of the huge advantages of having one amp per driver!! (Ruler flat response, incredibly dynamic, unbelievable amounts of deep bass.) I can easily believe the Active 20s were flat to 36 Hz.

GHM · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 12:24 am »

JLM I can assure you, These speakers are getting no where near 36 Hz. Maybe 60 Hz if their lucky... That's pretty much it. In order to get that low effect feeling Anthony is after.The speaker needs to get down to a true 40Hz. Mid 30s would be better. The room will do the rest.I learned long ago... Paradigm specs are not legit.

bpape · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 02:11 am »

If you've not heard the active 20's, I think you should before saying they're rolling off at 60. I'll guarantee you they're solid to 40 if not lower.

Personally, I prefer the 20's to the 40's anyway - but that wasn't the question.

Bryan

Antman27 · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 02:12 am »

Thanks Yea it is strange Paradigm said to run the speakers full range BUT users on AVS say they are crossing them over & 80
Why would they say the speakers could go down to 36 if it is actuly only about 60
If i were to keep this set up I was going to try the nuforce amps when the funds were avalible But it sounds like that wont help (I was thinking of the nuforce due to lack of space )

GHM · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 02:20 am »

Quote from: bpape on 23 Sep 2006, 02:11 am

If you've not heard the active 20's, I think you should before saying they're rolling off at 60. I'll guarantee you they're solid to 40 if not lower.

Personally, I prefer the 20's to the 40's anyway - but that wasn't the question.

Bryan

Bryan I was referring to the 40v3s not active 20s. I also owned the 20v3s..I think I like them more than the 40s. At the present time you couldn't give me a pair of either..just a personal preference.

Anthony,

Save your money and put it into a better speaker for your taste. Then you can start checking out better amplifiers and such. I've seen a friend go through the same thing. He sunk so much money into a speaker trying to get it to do something it wouldn't do.

I wish you all the best. Just trying to save you from another disappointment.
Oh yeah..what ever you do don't mix Paradigm and Bryston...terrible combo. The kind that gives headaches.

bpape · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 03:24 am »

Sorry - my bad.

Neither are really my cup of tea either. But compared to a lot of other things out there, if you drive and set them up right, they can be pretty decent.

Bryan

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 03:55 am »

Quote from: GHM on 22 Sep 2006, 11:44 pm

These speakers had no REAL bass... It just wasn't there. Once the Seismic 12 sub was turned on the bottom filled out. It didn't blend well though.

The 40 is a bookshelf speaker and will not have any real bass especially located out in the room. That's a given.

Adding the Seismic 12 should make a good full range speaker system. You said it didn't blend well. Can you explain how it was connected? Was an external xover utilized? Or did you run the sub in parallel with the 40s?

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 03:57 am »

Quote from: JLM on 23 Sep 2006, 12:05 am

Paradigm's specifications seem a bit fishy too. By their numbers the Studio 20 and 40 have the same rated low frequency extension (36 Hz) with the same tweeter and midwoofer, but the 40 is bigger and adds a woofer. It's hard to believe anyone would be complaining of lack of bass if it was flat to 36 Hz. More It's also hard to believe the small standmount Studio 20 is flat to 36 Hz.

I heard the Studio 20 years ago versus the Active 20. What a marvelous demonstration of the huge advantages of having one amp per driver!! (Ruler flat response, incredibly dynamic, unbelievable amounts of deep bass.) I can easily believe the Active 20s were flat to 36 Hz.

Yes, it seems that there is an obvious typo in the Paradigm specs for the 40s. Too bad the Active 20s (or any powered speakers) can't make it in the audiophile world. It's our loss.

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 04:10 am »

Quote from: Antman27 on 23 Sep 2006, 02:12 am

Thanks Yea it is strange Paradigm said to run the speakers full range BUT users on AVS say they are crossing them over & 80
Why would they say the speakers could go down to 36 if it is actuly only about 60
If i were to keep this set up I was going to try the nuforce amps when the funds were avalible But it sounds like that wont help (I was thinking of the nuforce due to lack of space )

I don't think Paradigm is doing anything funny with their specs; at least no more than others. It looks like the frequency response data is switched between the 20 and the 40. If you do that then they claim that the 40 is -2dB at 54Hz. They may still be fudging that a little, but that is low enough to blend well with a sub. The 36Hz figure is for in room and probably on the floor in a corner.

Bookshelf (even full range) speakers should be high-passed. You do not want the bass out in the room away from room boundaries.

I do not think you can solve an acoustic problem with an amplifier. As you already know, the Velodyne sub you liked is a real solution. If your amp is under powered, then high-passing the 40s will take the bass load off your amp. It's a win-win.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 05:19 am »

bpape, I'm surprised at you! The first thing that popped into my mind is that you may have a room problem.

Antman27 · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 02:44 pm »

I stoped into my dealer & explained to him what I think is going on & he suggested the Ultracube 10
The Semisonic is much more $$
He thought the Ultracube for $700 Ish would blow away my pdr-8
The showroom was under some revamping so I did not get a chance to have a listen
So if I stay with my 40s wich I think sound great except the lows and upgrade the sub I should XO the 40s about 60 or 80 and keep them set to small not large
Thanks for your thoughts again~

woodsyi · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 03:16 pm »

I don't know Antman,

I don't think this $700 will be the last fee you pay on this fork in the journey. IMHO, I would step back and reassess the directions. Something is raising red flags for me.

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 03:56 pm »

Quote from: Antman27 on 23 Sep 2006, 02:44 pm

I stoped into my dealer & explained to him what I think is going on & he suggested the Ultracube 10
The Semisonic is much more $$
He thought the Ultracube for $700 Ish would blow away my pdr-8
The showroom was under some revamping so I did not get a chance to have a listen
So if I stay with my 40s wich I think sound great except the lows and upgrade the sub I should XO the 40s about 60 or 80 and keep them set to small not large
Thanks for your thoughts again~

I'm sure the Ultracube 10 would be an improvement over your present PDR-8. "Blow Away" may be optimistic, but there's only one way to find out -- home audition.

It looks like the Ultracube 10 is the result of trickle down technology from the Seismic series. They've had to cut corners somewhere to reduce the price. The Seismic 10 is 20 pounds heavier for a slightly larger cabinet. I'm guessing that some of that weight is due to a different driver. Note that the amp in the Seismic series is twice as powerful. That is necessary to offset the back EMF from a larger motor structure in the Seismic series. I believe that the quality of the bass will be much better from the Seismic 10 than the Ultracube 10. However, it may not be worth the additional dollars to you.

Ideally, a home audition of both the Ultracube 10 and the Seismic 10 at the same time will answer all your questions.

Yes, the 40s should be set to Small and I would try 80Hz as the crossover in your receiver and by-pass the crossover in the sub.

Best of luck,
Bob

Antman27 · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 05:22 pm »

woodsyi what are your thoughts that raises this red flag
If I could swing the funds for the semisonic do you think I would be better off with the Velo SPL1200R ?

Antman27 · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 06:44 pm »

If I do look to replace the paradigms are there any large bookshelf along the sams size as my 40s (22Hx 8Wx12d ) that will give me more of a full range speaker sound Or am I limited by the large bookshelf style speakers ?
Thanks ~