[rollo]

  (A-Basic TVC) v.s. (B-Ref. 2 vol. 1 box)
             
    (B-Ref 2 vol. 1 box) vs (C-Ref. 2 vol. 2 box)

Has anybody done direct comparisons?
If so could you place it as a guestimate of a % fiqure
going from:

A>B = 20% better? 
or
B>C = 5% better?

Thanks,

   


I have compared the Ref dual mono to the dual box Ref. Unfortunately it was not apples to apples. My dual box version has copper Neotech copper internal wiring and the single box silver.
     The dual box has better imaging with more depth and separation of instruments. the soundstage is set further back not in your face. The bass has more weight and authority. The midrange is about the same maybe a tad fuller. The treble is less detailed with a rounder feeling of notes. Very natural IMO. Decay and air are very much present. The silver version may have a bit more air but is very detailed. Dynamics are equal maybe a slight edge to the silver version.
     These opinions are subjective. There are too many variables such as cables, components, tubes. I can change my sound by just changing the output tubes in the CDP or Amp.
      I would say if your system is on the dark or warm side go with silver edition if it is on the bright or lean side go with copper edition. It is system dependant.
        The one thing for sure is the dual mono provides better imaging, a larger soundstage, authority and bass.
        When I first received the TVC it was a taken to my friends home to compare to stereo version. Both with silver wiring. At the time he was breaking in his Druid speakers and we compared the two TVCs. Since the speakers were not ready for prime time we were not able to discern any difference in tonality [ both units had less than 50 Hrs break in ]. The size of the soundstage was larger with the dual mono and the bass was more powerfull. Close ,but the edge goes to dual mono. Imaging, presence and weight was the main benefit.
        Is the difference of cost worth it for the dual mono? IMO yes. There was just more there there. To some the price of the dual mono will not be worth it. However if you desire that little bit more by all means take the plunge for the dual mono. The internal wire selection as I said is subjective to your system requirements so you make the call. 
        Attaching a percentage to the comparison is difficult at best, so if I was to GUESS I would say 40% better for dual mono over stereo edition.
         What made the biggest difference was the addition of the Preamp. The active Pre just completed the picture IMO. Everything is portrayed with a sense of realism that is hard to resist. What amazed me the most was that the clarity I so admired with TVC alone was NOT lost. What you get is clarity with organic wholeness. A 3D soundstage and balls to the wall bass. The top is sweeter yet still detailed. The harmonics are revealed with more air and decay of instruments. For me the combo outweighed the difference between dual mono or stereo edition. Now, there is no going back to TVC alone for me. My reference Preamp [ Loecsh and Weisner ] is now a dedicated phonostage, and not going back in any time soon.
        If you want it all go for dual mono and Preamp combo. If your on a budget at least go for dual mono and upgrade later with active Preamp.
        What you need to consider is the character of the source. Why, because the TVC will reveal your sources true sonic merits or faults. It is extremely revealing of source component. You will hear what your CDP is truly capable of, good or bad. The TVC will not make poor sounding CDs sound good. SO, strongly consider what internal wiring trait best suits your systems character. You gets what you put in as the TVC is as neutral to the source as it gets.

   Well you have some thinking to do. Good luck with you decision as it is your system and money.

     rollo   

[Whitese]

dang, i will have to order a Ref dual mono again with the tube active....

Anyone tried his phono?

[gooberdude]

Last week I e-mailed Nick about the Phono Pre, he told me to wait & that he is constructing a Reference version for a magazine reviewer...it'll have better internals & transformers.

[Whitese]

That Nick..always busy...

[gooberdude]

Its a good thing he's not a lazy bum like the rest of...well, OK, just me!!

If i recall properly his phono pre has been pictured on the site as long as the TVC has.   Very cool that he's finding the time & creativity to re-address the design with a 'fine toothed comb'.

[rollo]

Whitese,

   Was it you who mentioned using Monster cables? If so thanks, On a whim at Circuit City with gift card in hand I purchased a 2 Mtr. pair of Interlink 400 Mk2 for $50. Was so disappointed that the music selection was nil Had to buy something you know.  Not saying they are the best thing since sliced bread but they are very good between TVC and Preamp. Now that all is more than broken in I will put back Promitheus Silver ICs for comparison. I have been using a Worthington Audio silver ribbon IC which costs twice as much as TVC and Pre together. I know that is insane but we are all demented to some degree we are audiophiles.
    Initially the sound of the Monster was not like previous Monster issues. The topend was in no way bright or metallic sounding, crisp or overly detailed. It was sweet and organic. Just made music. The bass was outstanding . Yeah I lost a bit of clarity but gained weight and a fullness to the sound.  What a shock. I expected the same old Hi Fi house sound as before.  To my suprise, it appears Monster has come a long way since I last tried them many moons ago and I have seen too many moons to date. Refreshing I must say, Guys check these babies out. You never know until you try.

    Thanks,
     rollo

[rayd]

Folks, a small problem developed with my TVC and I have been in touch with Nicholas. He asked my to burn it in 4-5 days to see if the problem is still there. However, I am not sure how to do this. Do I just run an FM receiver into the TVC's inputs and leave the outputs unconnected? If so, where do I position the volume control? 12:00? Thanks for any help you can give me.

- Ray

[jaspal kallar]

Folks, a small problem developed with my TVC and I have been in touch with Nicholas. He asked my to burn it in 4-5 days to see if the problem is still there. However, I am not sure how to do this. Do I just run an FM receiver into the TVC's inputs and leave the outputs unconnected? If so, where do I position the volume control? 12:00? Thanks for any help you can give me.

- Ray

Yes play continuously your source (FM receiver or CDP or etc... ) into the TVC and connect your IC's from the TVC to your amp but you turn the amp off!
For Volume control put it about 2 or 3 clicks from the maximum possible but not at the maximum.

   jaspal.

[rayd]

jaspal thank you.

- Ray

[1000a]

Rollo

Thanks so much for taking the time to give me feedback on the TVCs w 2 vol., I am sure some others will or are pondering the same types of questions.  For me as a budget audiophile I sill want to factor things like well just because the TVC is great and a great price I shouldn’t rule out the step up versions.  I am not much on changing gear so I want to maximize my $$ so yea even a guess helps me make a better decision.  When it gets to 5%-7% better I have to think about are there other parts MS that can be bettered with that 200-300. more that yield more than 5%-7% better.  Thanks also for bringing up the copper vs. silver issues.

Now this is where it gets more interesting, your really liking the Monster 400MKII with your present set up.  Look forward to the silver IC vs the 400MKII when enough time has passed.

Why?  left NAD stuff in 2001 went tube integrated; below my findings with each change.  Leaving out Halos, vibrapods and the like that caused no need to seek balance lost.  I do want to chase my own tail in audio land, and maybe help others.

Front end staying the same Phillips CD960>>stereovox>> Birdland DAC (similar in sound to Bel Canto)

400MKIIs>>>>Jolida push-pull 100 w x 2>>>>stranded copper>>>> Odyssey Nightingales
(not analytical speakers, detail yes, very musical-emotional smooth good imagers) –COOL

see short rev of MKIIs at TNT audio
 
400MKIIs>>>>Jolida push-pull 100 w x 2>>>>Cat5 design>>>> Odyssey Nightingales
Cat5 gave me air, better images better all-but bass seemed thin- not enough body for me-I NEED A FIX? 

PS Audio Extreme statement>>>>Jolida push-pull 100 w x 2>>>>Cat5 design>>>> Odyssey Nightingales
I kept the CAT5 gains and got back my bass body w a IC not considered neutral- COOL
 
PS Audio Extreme statement>>>>Jolida push-pull 100 w x 2>>>>Multi-gauge small Magwire (no terminations)-DIY design>>>> Odyssey Nightingales
feeling like a King love it-detail, Slam, body everything way, way, way better as with Halos best improvement ever period – 3 times better than CAT5 or more way up in improvement x board period.- COOL, But Hmm?

30ga. Naked Magwire IC>>>>Jolida push-pull 100 w x 2>>>>Multi-gauge Magwire (no terminations)-DIY design>>>> Odyssey Nightingales
feeling like a King x 10 and I feel like I am absolutely on the RIGHT track musical, detailed got it all-neutral, now I have really learned some audio truths and realize distortion is what I got rid off.   COOL, so where else can I improve MS.

Next I am making magwire PCs.

ENTER TCV and you guys- and I am down for that more real, not a problem I love more real cause it has it all thus far IMS IMO.

Then Rollo who’s thoughts I really respect says he’s loving the 400 MKIIs - Oh God it can’t be - to much real needs to be tempered down a notch?   I love the character of the MKIIs- not in my face, soundstage back a little, very smooth, good bass, (but the bass beat to hell by Mag wire IMS), but MKIIs are soft on the edges of images in the soundstage IMS.

On the other hand your system is probably spades above mine in resolution and all aspects so I can see MKIIs being really nice, their basic charter is a beautiful presentation that I really liked until I found out all the stuff I was missing IMS via my mag. SC and ICs and Halos.  You are dealing with a whole different level than I.

So where am I now, I believe pretty strongly I will be happier with copper in my 2 vol TVC than silver.  Since I seem to be gaining more and more resolution by the boatloads I think silver is out for me even the silver RCAs.  Other than the Halos the Jolida is stock no black gates and what not.  So my amp is not a super resolver but I am hearing Krall’s and Barber’s not just lips parting but the lipstick, give me a Set amp and I’ll tell you Rightgard over Secret. 

So my question is somewhat philosophical when is enough enough, when do we start going in endless circles “of real too real” oh God why don’t they just put tone controls on this crap, I won’t tell my friends!  I know the fun is the pursuit.  I am not trying to be critical here I am just starting to wonder if anyone ever felt like they occasionally are going in circles even a little? 

Seriously DIY multiple smaller gauges magwire SC and single small wire IC designs simply must be tried, cheap as dirt- nothing to lose, ridiculously good, everything to gain even $$ in your pockets.  I would correlate it easily to me buying a significantly better amp. 50% better to twice as good w adding the halos.

So Rollo in closing, please let us know when your Silver ICs are back in and comments.  Forgive me but one thing I missed in your reply although not apples to apples is guessing % wise how much better 2 box 2 vol is over 1 box 2 vol?  Forgetting that one is silver and the other is copper, if possible just ignore that.

2 vol.- decided
1 box vs. 2 box undecided.     (Need a guess on % better?)
Standard RCAs- decided
Silver or copper inside- undecided.



 


 
 

[1000a]

Gooberdude

You said you were gonna make your room lens, its Saturday?    Well what do think, we are patiently waiting your review.  Just picking.

Seriously I am supposed to be making mine, cause your mention of it got me charged up, so next week will see who made theirs!   

[gooberdude]

this afternoon i dropped off my Room Tunes Tune Pak kit to another AC member...       My guess is after 2-3 days of a naked room i'm gonna lose it & head the Home Depot for the DIY Room Lenses.

i need to ween my ears off the tuned room a few days, get used to what a naked room sounds like, then head into the Lenses in order to be able to give 'em a real chance & be able to tune them.

The real question is has anyone else made these???     

a few months back i spent an afternoon listening to a room with 4 of the real ones + a gaggle of Eighth Nerve pillows.  it would be interesting to see how they do in a naked room though.   I looked the originals up and down for a few hours, they do seem easy to DIY.  there weren't any weird angles or arrangments that i could tell.  it is possible their tube material isn't tvc & their acoustic material is somethin' weird.  the base was quite heavy, seems like mass is a key there & allowing the bottom of the tube to breathe.   the whole design works by air flowing through the pipes (i think).

about a year ago when i bought the Tune Pak i also purchased 2 - 2'x2' bass traps from ATS acoustics...after being told from numerous people online that the Tune Pak couldn't trap bass.    Not only was that not the case but having the panels in the room really messed with the sound.   after a few days i contacted mgaudio & removed the bass traps & the problems disappeared completely.   his kit is only designed to be used with his products due to his theories.  the Room Lense may be similar.  There's one Review of it and that's what the reviewer concluded.

Just my opinion but anything that keeps unsightly panels and mass amounts of fiberglass out of the home, or at least where you breathe daily, is a good thing.   the 2 ATS backless panels acoustic panels reside in the trunk of my Accord, wrapped in an ultra thin 1 mil trashcan liner (from an office bldg), resulting in a bitchn' improvement to the daily commute.   I'm pretty sure panels are ultimately more effective but its at a steep price increase.

[rollo]

1000a,
            Thanks for the nice words. I would say that the two box TVC is 25% better than single box. Basically the soundstage is larger, deeper and wider with more space between instruments. Air and decay of notes goes to two box version Tonality is about the same with the two box just edging out the single box in the bass and midrange area. Top end is extended on both. Dynamics are about equal, edge going to two box. 
           If I were you I would opt for Dual Mono single box and save a few pennies. If you listen to rock or pop go with copper wire. If you are big on Jazz and classical go silver.
           By the way I thought I was the only one still left who likes tone controls. Good man. So instead I use ICs to dial in the sound I prefer.
          Mag. wire sounds very interesting. I have copper Anti-Cables and they are very good. My reference IC is Harmonix Golden Performance. Tough to beat IMO, but not cheap unfortunately. I also use Tara Decade [5 Mtr. ] from pre to amp. No complaints. I bought the Monster on a whim. As you said the top may be a tad rounded but I can listen all day long with no fatigue. Tonight I will compare Promitheus silver against Monster.
        Now chasing your own tail and coming full circle is a good thing. Tutorial and funIMO. We must try as many as we can. Not looking to see which is better. There is no " better " cable IMO, synergy is the thing. Which is system dependent and subjective to the listener. Period.
       So, have fun trying and by all means ENJOY THE MUSUC and jump on the good ship Promitheus.

      cheers
      rollo

[1000a]

Rollo

    Thanks so much for your well considered responses to my questions, now I am there choice wize.  It seems Nick's products are so value intensive say TVC + active pre will deliver so much overall improvement for 900. to 1,250. that there are absolutely zip  options for that kinda $$ that can delv that much overall quality improvement.  No DACs, TTs, CDPs, Amps, or Spkrs.  I don't believe can delv it per 900-1,200 toss per item and then some maybe a 2-3x sum. 

So now I can not wait to hear you guys responses to his std. DAC or his Tube DAC, if he delvs the same kinda value he did with the other stuff, that tube DAC could very well out do or = your Lector.  If so the Audio Gods have truely smiled down on the files with sane budgets.
 

[Say]

My Dual TVC should be in any day soon. While I'm waiting I was wondering about the active pre's specs. Is the signal to noise ratio better than 80 db?

What is the measured channel seperation?

Which amp of Nick's would be a good match for speakers with 92db sensitivity into 8 ohms?

Thanks ahead of time for any answers.

[gooberdude]

Hey Say,

I looked into Nick's amps & thought the 2A3/45 amp would be best...his other is a 300b which is for vocals....it will all depend on your taste.

i have 96db effificient 8 ohm drivers and am using 8wpc.  I think Nick's have about twice that amount of power.

Over the weekend I was looking at this site & the active preamp, I'm really interested in buying this next possibly.   I'm enjoying the 8wpc ASL monoblocks, but a few more db of gain would be right for my Imod.

[rollo]

          Promitheus is working on a all out version of the GM 70 tube in SET configuration. They also have a 300B and 45 SET. Amps are hand built to order at this time. Nicholas is experimenting with different transformer cores [C and double C core ] for implementation in the new line of products. This is great news as the trannie is the heart of it all.
          Imagine larger double C core balanced trannies for the TVC, CDP, DA, Pre and Amp. Since Promitheus hand winds each trannie in house, we can expect perfection as seen with the original TVC offering.
           As you all know by now, I have had the basic Promitheus active Pre to compare to the TVC alone. The combo is a winner. The Pre was built to a price point. So when the DIY crowd opens up the box and looks inside there are many ways to fool around. I changed the bypass caps from the installed [ Arovox ] on the power supply to Mundorf silver/gold.  This change made a large improvement overall. There are bypass caps at the tube sockets [ Phillips ] for the 6N1P input tubes. Change them to V cap Teflon or Mundorf silver in oil and OH my God. This will set you back about $125 but the results priceless. These caps are very expensive compared to overall cost of unit however IMO are well worth the money. With little effort a inexperienced DIY like myself had zero problems making the change. All connections are point to point, how refreshing. Simplicity at its best and performance to match.
        When I go to Malaysia this month for vacation hopefully I can meet Nicholas and have him design an all out amp with GM70 tube [70 W SET] with balanced double C core trannies in mono block form with separate power supplies. A matching remote controlled TVC / Preamp with same trannies all connected with balanced ICs. Have to take advantage of the balanced trannies, you know. A tubed NOS DAC with transformer output should give the Lector a run for the money I would think. We shall see. Nicholas uses a Accuphase CDP for reference to evaluate his designs. If he can get close to the performance of that unit, well IMO we are in for something very exciting and of course reasonably priced. The SS DAC is $375 with USB connection, a steal at that price. A steal if it performs well anyway. Knowing Nicolas' track record IMO we should not be disappointed.
       To me it only makes sense to stick to one Man. and take full advantage of the synergy of the line. It just makes it so simple. When the voicing of components can be controlled in house all the work is done for you. If the TVC and Preamp is a taste of what the Promitheus house sound is then we are in good hands and IMO look forward to trying a all Promitheus system down the road. So far the house sound is true to the source, not a bad thing. Clarity, dynamics,  body and soul. The new trannies should take the sound to new levels as they are the key in any design.
       Have you read the interview of Nicholas in Affordable Audio. Very interesting his opinions and viewpoints on his company and goals. If he continues his quest as planned we are in for something special down the road. Time will tell. The reviewers so far have praised the TVC in Enjoy The Music, Affordable Audio. Reviews from Sterophile and HiFi+ are forthcoming. Hopefully they will be positive as well. We shall see.
       Lets just hope the onslaught of positive reviews and demand for product does not affect the performance of Promitheus as a Manf. to deliver the product on time with quality control. Customer service is where all young and popular companies fail. Since Nicholas refuses to mass produce product and insists on hand building each piece to order, we may have to wait a bit, but the product will be better for it . He will not sacrifice profit for less performance and IMO that is what I am looking for.
      These are very exciting times for Promitheus and us as well. Top performance and bang for the buck. This is what we have been asking for in our hobby for many moons. With our support, Promitheus should be around for a long time to come.
        So come on guys, what do you want to see from Promitheus as far as product and customer service down the road? Input from us is important, so don't be shy, let him have it, good or bad its all a learning curve critique. If more Manfs were willing to take advantage of customer input and really listen we would all be better off IMO.
         Yeah I'm excited and enthusiastic about Promitheus products that is obvious. Why, I now own three products, the TVC, Preamp and Energizer. Not one has disappointed me in any way and the price is right. I do not think I am alone on this with 160+ pages of threads to date. It is so refreshing in our hobby to have a man like Nicholas around who believes in his work and continues to strive for the best for less. With the Music First at $3000 now and not better than TVC in any way IMO, yeah the cosmetics are great but not worth $2500  more. Now the Bent Tap is worth it as it has remote control relay switch attenuators, multiple input and output options, a list of other goodies and a beautiful enclosure. Is it better than TVC? yes it is by a small margin and at $2500 it should be.     
        If Promitheus can design a TVC with relay switch remote control attenuators with bigger balanced "C" or double "C" core trannies in a all wood enclosure for a reasonable price I want one.

   So let him have it guys, good or bad, IMO it will make a difference.

  rollo

[Say]

Appreciate the info gooberdude! So much stuff coming from Promitheus that I shudder from the amount of possibilities. Yet that's what this hobby is about. Some anxiety mixed in with the joy of listening. Not to mention the obsessive nature of the beast.

Rollo, your experience is of great help to new TVC owners. The energizer and active pre are on my mind, along with one of the amps. First things first though. I need to listen to the TVC as is then burn it in for some time after which I'll have a good idea about the pro's and con's. 

[Nels Ferre]

Rollo,

You asked for ideas for Nicholas to improve things..

When I ordered my TVC, I expected a confirmation email of some sort. I didn't get one. It doesn't have to be anything fancy (real time order updating and the like) just a confirmation "We have recieved your order, and will be building your unit shortly" would have been nice.

Just an idea. I realize Nicholas is busy. I have a feeling he is about to be busier. This small change will bring big benefits as far as comfort level to buyers, IMHO.

He could also sit down for a few mins at the end of the day and send out a canned "Your unit has been shipped" e-mail to those whose units were shipped that day. It wouldn't take but a few minutes.

Communication is where it's at.

[rollo]

Nels,
           Communication is paramount and always an ongoing issue. Nels presents some valid points and I second his thoughts.  Remember we are not criticizing Promitheus just providing input as to what the customer sees as important. 
            Thanks Nels for getting the ball rolling. C'mon guys I know you have some input as well.
 rollo