[robert1325]

OK, this is getting a bit complicated:

The standard version uses the ref3 transformer/PS or something

The reference version with dual channel volume control also uses ref3 but sounds quite a bit better?  That one is the most expensive...  Also I don''t like dual volume, is it stepped with clicks or a smooth turning knob?

Thank you for all your help,  I'm trying to get trough this thread anyway because this might be the perfect pre-amp for me.   

EDIT:   I'm not sure if this will give a bigger improvement to the sound than a good power conditioner...  I've listened to  my Squeezebox and the t-amp with one of those and the sound is superduper , 3d and smooth high's!

[Whitese]

mine has stepped. nice clicks..

[tanchiro58]

Hi Robert 1325,

I had the same questions like you before I decided to buy one. You should directly go to www.promitheusaudio.com to do your research. I believe Nicholas Chua is sure about what he does and experiences. You will have a lot of options to choose. Besides this forum is just presented the TVC owner's opinion and comparison between Promitheus Audio's products. I read them and have tried to see if TVC can match my system so I already bought one after another (but different one) and plan to get the Reference one and a power energizer and Nick's NOS DAC too.
To me dual mono volume control preamp is the best choice (I have also had couple of active preamp) since I can control the shifting sound of one channel compare to other in a two channel system especially in tube gear system. aa.

Good luck,
Tan

[GHM]

OK, this is getting a bit complicated:

The standard version uses the ref3 transformer/PS or something

The reference version with dual channel volume control also uses ref3 but sounds quite a bit better?  That one is the most expensive...  Also I don''t like dual volume, is it stepped with clicks or a smooth turning knob?

Thank you for all your help,  I'm trying to get trough this thread anyway because this might be the perfect pre-amp for me.   

EDIT:   I'm not sure if this will give a bigger improvement to the sound than a good power conditioner...  I've listened to  my Squeezebox and the t-amp with one of those and the sound is superduper , 3d and smooth high's!

Well ..it can be a little confusing. Since there are so many different versions with each trannie. I do not have the dual volume control reference version. I have the Reference version with a single knob . It has two inputs and two outputs. My V2 unit has 4 inputs and two outputs. TVCs as far as I know do not use pots. They are all stepped except the new TAP..which is something different.

Power conditioners can be great..but their improvements are dwarfed by the differences a preamp can make..especially a TVC in the right system.

[robert1325]

Ah , it has clicks,   Don't mind it then     It's just when I'm watching movies I have to change  the volume in complete darkness( projector) and don't want to fiddle around with two volume pots that are not easy to match

HAve to scrape some money together for this then...   I'll think about it,  160 dollars extra for the dual mono version is a lot for me( student )   I might be able to get it cheaper if I order a dual mono with one input /output.

A long time ago in this thread "new buyer" made a comment about the endler stepped attenuators ,  that the tvc and the endler are both very good , but sound different.   Has anyone really compared them?    The endler's are much cheaper

Robert

[shep]

That's a whole nuther topic Rob! Anyway if you are thinking of the ones that go directly on the inputs of the amp, you sure can't do this with the Trends (no space). There are several really good attenuators out there but they are not much cheaper than the TVC. Having read about half of this (very long) thread, I don't think anyone was disappointed, on the contrary. This is just my opinion but if it were me I would wait a while and save the pennies. It looks like this "pre." is evolving quickly and in interesting directions.

[tanchiro58]

Hi,

I do not believe that a pots can beat a TVC but I think pots combined with TVC are the best. I can not explain why but since I got TVC hook up to my SET parallel 2A3 that has a Gold Point 24 stepped attenuators installed with Vishay-Dale resistors. They are a good match I have never listened to. 

Tan

[GHM]

Hi,

I do not believe that a pots can beat a TVC but I think pots combined with TVC are the best. I can not explain why but since I got TVC hook up to my SET parallel 2A3 that has a Gold Point 24 stepped attenuators installed with Vishay-Dale resistors. They are a good match I have never listened to. 

Tan

Your stepped attenuators aren't pots. They are both two different types of volume controls. Resistor based stepped attenuators are known to be better than volume pots as a whole...Well at least by popular opinion.

Look at the higher end integrates..most designers use the stepped attenuators over the volume pot.

[guest1632]

Hi,

I do not believe that a pots can beat a TVC but I think pots combined with TVC are the best. I can not explain why but since I got TVC hook up to my SET parallel 2A3 that has a Gold Point 24 stepped attenuators installed with Vishay-Dale resistors. They are a good match I have never listened to. 

Tan

Your stepped attenuators aren't pots. They are both two different types of volume controls. Resistor based stepped attenuators are known to be better than volume pots as a whole...Well at least by popular opinion.

Look at the higher end integrates..most designers use the stepped attenuators over the volume pot.

Unfortunately, not just opinion.

A true stepped attenuator r has some real advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage is how it is done. You can use one or 2 resistors in each channel, and depending on the quality of those resistors you can match the volume level to a higher degree than any pot.

The Normal highend pots can not compete with the channel accuracy of the stepped pot especially on the lower registers.

The disadvantage is that you only have roughly 24 clicks or positions for that stepped pot to work with.

Some people will tell you that there is a level of accuracy that the standard rotary pot can give, but you then have to weigh the sound differences.
Having 2 separate pots or switches as opposed to one removes the interactions between the switch with the two channels attached. It also removes any possible crosstalk between thee two channels.

The deluxe version has silver RCA as opposed to the regular ones. I'm not sure what else is done.

Yep! This little baby is evolving all right. Can't wait to see where it will finally end up.
Hope that helps.

Regards,
Ray

[tanchiro58]

Hi Ray,

I do not have enough knowledge to explain the theory that you have commented about advantages and disadvantages between the dual single attenuators and the stereo one but I do trust my ears (since I have a chance to own both types of TVC) when I listened to both and found that dual mono volume TVC amazed me with spacious sound, music instruments separated and vocal is more lively. 

Tan

[NewBuyer]

...A long time ago in this thread "new buyer" made a comment about the endler stepped attenuators ,  that the tvc and the endler are both very good , but sound different.   Has anyone really compared them?    The endler's are much cheaper ...

Obviously I am a big fan of the TVC. However I have just recently removed the TVC from my system for a comparison test with the Endler attenuators. You know, and I am reluctant to say this, but the TVC has absolutely nothing over the Endlers. The Endler attenuators are still easily my favorite sounding "passive pre", when they are attached directly to the amp inputs (i.e. no cables at all between attenuators and amp inputs). For a component-level preamp solution with input switching and easy volume adjustment, the TVC is the only contender that has proven to sound really fantastic to me. But if you can give up input switching and easy volume adjustment, nothing in my experience can touch the sound of the Endlers, they are really, really special (at least in my system).

I'm having great difficulty deciding what to do now, between the two. It's a really tough decision.

[guest1632]

...A long time ago in this thread "new buyer" made a comment about the endler stepped attenuators ,  that the tvc and the endler are both very good , but sound different.   Has anyone really compared them?    The endler's are much cheaper ...

Obviously I am a big fan of the TVC. However I have just recently removed the TVC from my system for a comparison test with the Endler attenuators. You know, and I am reluctant to say this, but the TVC has absolutely nothing over the Endlers. The Endler attenuators are still easily my favorite sounding "passive pre", when they are attached directly to the amp inputs (i.e. no cables at all between attenuators and amp inputs). For a component-level preamp solution with input switching and easy volume adjustment, the TVC is the only contender that has proven to sound really fantastic to me. But if you can give up input switching and easy volume adjustment, nothing in my experience can touch the sound of the Endlers, they are really, really special (at least in my system).

I'm having great difficulty deciding what to do now, between the two. It's a really tough decision.

Hi Newbuyer,

Certainly, that could be the case. What are these "Endlers." Are they just single resistors between channels hooked up between amp and source?

Rather than hijack this thread, why don't you just PM me on the details.

Ray

[rollo]

Hey Guys,
                 The ref. model has S/S top and bottom plates,solid silver RCA's and thats all folks.The original model had wood plates but due to damage during shipping ALL models have S/S plates.If you require a selector for the 2 input version the Ref. uses a Grayhill switch.
          The price of the standard unit was increased to accomodate the S/S plates.Wire price cost also increased the price of all models.
           To confuse matters more a true Dual Mono in 2 separate enclosures may be offered soon.I'm having one built for me as we speak,just deciding which internal wiring to use.Either Neotech 7N copper or the transformer wire.The copper wire will probably reduce some detail and maybe air but will add the weight to the sound I AM looking for.We are also adding a ground post to ground the trannies and plates.It will have one input and two outputs.
           Can't wait for this one, Nicholas is breaking in the copper wires and then will determine which one is better suited for this application.
      Until then I'll enjoy the one I have.
    Cheers rollo

[NewBuyer]

...What are these "Endlers." Are they just single resistors between channels hooked up between amp and source?...

Hi Ray,

Probably easist if I just provide a link to them.

[Whitese]

Those attenuators look very interesting indeed.

[Gaara]

Robert,

How do you like your TA-10?  Judging by your avatar I would assume you like it a lot.  I have one on order that hopefully will be here soon, it is replacing a sonic impact Super-T.

As for the whole pots vs stepped attenuator vs TVC so far the TVC seems to be top in my book.  I haven't done any real in depth analysis, probably will in the next few weeks, but I own the Endlers (stepped), a Luminous Audio Axiom (pot), and a Promitheus TVC purchased on Agon while waiting for my Ref 3 to come in.  I also have a Modwright SWL 9.0SE and a B&K Ref 50.  I prefer the sound of the Endlers over the Axiom by a decent margin, and the TVC over the Endlers by a slight margin.  At this point I haven't done to much comparing, but I prefer the Modwright to all of them, and the Ref 50 falls in between the Endlers and Axiom.

If you want the basic Endlers they are a good value at $80 plus shipping, but bear in mind 4db is a big step, they have only one input, and you have to reach in back of your components every time you want to adjust the volume.  If you wanted the 2db steps in a enclosure your at $190 + shipping, not as good of a value as they once were IMO.

I have always wondered how the EVS Ultimate Attenuators sound, they just went back into production after Ric ceased them for a few years.  These are supposed to be the most transparent pre ever made, short of soldering in different resistors everytime you want to change the volume.

Jared

[Steve Eddy]

I do not believe that a pots can beat a TVC but I think pots combined with TVC are the best. I can not explain why but since I got TVC hook up to my SET parallel 2A3 that has a Gold Point 24 stepped attenuators installed with Vishay-Dale resistors. They are a good match I have never listened to. 

Personally I've been of the opinion that the real "magic" of TVCs is in the T rather than in the VC. Long before TVCs hit the scene, I'd been using fixed, 1:1 input transformers coupled to resistive attenuators on the transformer's secondary. That combination still works best for me.

se

[tanchiro58]

Hi Steve,

You are absolutely right. I have tried to connect my active tube preamp (custom built with Tango trannies) to my SET 2A3 amp. Guess what I did not want to listen to it anymore (the sound was so horrible dull, stiff and harsh) after reconnecting the TVC to my amp. I thought it was maybe caused by power cord or ICs but it was not. I also have tried Luminous Audio Axiom and EVS attenuators. None of them could sound like TVC in my opinion and/or my taste. 

Regards,
Tan

[NewBuyer]

Personally I've been of the opinion that the real "magic" of TVCs is in the T rather than in the VC. Long before TVCs hit the scene, I'd been using fixed, 1:1 input transformers coupled to resistive attenuators on the transformer's secondary. That combination still works best for me.

Hi Steve,

In your design, would you say the 1:1 input transformers mostly contribute to the magic due to their impedance-matching ability, or their signal isolation ability, or both?

I ask because, the Promitheus TVC provides impedance-matching, but not signal isolation (I think)...

[davetroy]

Hi, everyone. I'm new to this thread, but I'm awaiting a Promitheus TVC Ref 2. I've been planning for some time to add a Vandersteen 2wq subwoofer to my system, which already includes Vandersteen 2ce Signature speakers. Can anyone think of any reason why the 2wqs wouldn't work well with the Promitheus TVC or any reason why I shouldn't attempt this? It seems that since the 2wqs operate off the power amps speaker taps, this shouldn't be a problem. Also, do subwoofers, in general, work okay with passives and TVCs?

Thanks for your help,
Dave