Hammer Dynamics speakers

mgalusha · « **on:** 18 Jun 2003, 03:48 am »

Anyone here ever own or listen to the Hammer Dynamics S-12 speakers? They have interested me for quite some time and I have read mostly good things about them but thought I'd try to solicit a few more opinions.

Mike

matsukawags · « **Reply #1 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 04:54 am »

I recently built the Hammer Dynamic Speakers with all the tweaks from the web site including the outstanding Fostex FT17H tweeter. My favorite speaker is the Quad57 which I own and which I compare all other speakers to especially female vocals. The Hammer Dynamics are the closest sounding I have heard to my Quads. Of course it has more bass and treble and perhaps because of the additional treble it sounds more detailed than the Quads. The Quads though are still my favorite for listening to pure vocals but these Hammers really come close. The Hammers might actually have too much bass but putting them on spikes and damping them with the proper dampening material as mentioned on the web site can tame the bass somewhat.

   My friends dropped over recently to hear them. They are currently running Lowther Medallions. One friends comment was that the Hammers sounded more like the Quads and he was really impressed with the Bass. I asked him how do they compare to the Lowthers and he said that the Lowthers were more dynamic and more efficient but the Hammers had a lot more bass and sounded really warm like the Quads which also was his favorite speaker. He really was impressed with the Hammers. I cannot comment on the Lowthers since I last heard them about 3 years ago, but the Hammers are much easier to build than horn speakers. I should know I tried 3 years ago and gave up.

   I also have the Norh 9s and currently are trying to sell them at the trading post (sorry for the plug). The Norh 9s are fine sounding speakers but you have to play them on the louder side in order to hear them at their best which I find seems to be the norm for medium efficient speakers. I currently use them for Home theatre since I can play them fairly loud. They are very neutral sounding and image well. I prefer the Hammer Dynamics imaging though which is on the tall side (since they are tall) but that's just my taste.

   By the way I listen to mostly vinyl with tube electronics all the way. I have an old but highly modified Heathkit W-5 with MFA Magus preamp. I hope to have a friend build me a SET amp as soon as I can sell the Norhs.

v/r
Gene

EDS_ · « **Reply #2 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 05:07 am »

A good friend of mine has a pair of Hammers that he drives with a Ram tube amp. The sound is simply great.

High sensitivity speakers never sound right to me at very high volumes..........but short of that they are nearly perfect. They really are fast and articulate.

The good is well noted.

The bad (and it is not really bad) is that Hammers get that beamy brash sound when pushed really hard (at least in my buds house).

If I needed a high sensitivity speaker the Hammer would be it.

matsukawags · « **Reply #3 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 05:33 am »

I have not noticed any beamy brash sound even when played really loud (in my house which is fairly damped 18x21 with opening to the dining and kitchen), athough I have been running my speakers with the Adire subwoofer and crossing them over around 50hz. I have recently listened to them pretty far back >15' and actually enjoy them more that way, seems to give a better image.

By the way, the bass really never bothered me even without the spikes but a friend of mind mentioned that it sounded bass heavy so I added the spikes.

v/r
Gene

darkmoebius · « **Reply #4 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 05:44 am »

I've had them for up and running for about 4 months now and they are truly amazing if you take the time to tweak them for optimal performance in YOUR system and room. There is a lot of room for reducing cabinet resonances, upgrading x-over components, bracing, etc. And that's half the fun of DIY.

I've only had a chance to try a few low power tubed SET amps so far, but the results were stunning! At the same time, the Super-12's take on a whole 'nother personae with some power behind them. Man, these things get fast and authorative when driven by 20+ watts. (I've wondered what a Pass Aleph 30 would do). But, for now, I'm stuck with my Audio Refinement SS integrated until I can afford (and decide on) a SET or IT-coupled PP amp design.

The main thing that drew me to the Super-12's was their ability to deliver real bass. Hammer specs state 45-21kHz, but I'd swear that in my 20'x16'x8' foot room I'm getting -3dB response in the 30-35Hz. Snare drums have snap, timpanies rumble.

Another Hammer owner, Tiangus, has used a meter to measure his in-room reponse in the 32-33Hz range using a 3/4W (0.75) Berning microZOTL headphone amp. How loud? Far louder than he needs. Of course, his apartment isn't very large if I remember sorrectly.

More importantly, the Super-12's recreate vocals, percussion, strings, and wind instruments with startling reality. All the great jazz vocalists that I love sound incredibly natural: Nat King Cole, Sarah Vaughan, Sinatra, DeeDee Bridgewater, etc.

I've just started getting into classical and Jacqueline du Pre's cello has body, depth, and resonance. There's something that the Super-12's single driver (w/ supertweeter >10kHz) presents that presents the emotion of her performance in an entirely new fashion (for me).

Over at http://melhuish.org/audio/">The Single Driver Forum you'll find a whole gaggle of Hammer D owners. They also have a section dedicated to http://melhuish.org/audio/super12.htm">Super-12 Tweaking.

I'm personally having a preofessional cabinet maker build a furniture quality set of boxes with some aesthetic accents to lesson the standard boxey appearance while minimizing cabinet resonances. Compared to buying all the power tools and butchering a lot of expensive veneer, it is just cheaper and quicker to have a pro do it. These things are going to be bee-u-tiful!

BTW, I bought my kit for $325 from a guy who had his for a couple of years but never built the speakers. The kit had the old titanium tweeters and Colleen Wyckoff replaced them with the newer silk-dome tweets for free. The difference between the two is a matter of taste. Some people prefer the clear extension of the metal domes, while I preder the smoothness of silk.

A lot of the Super-12 owners over at the Single Driver Forum have reported excellent results switching to Fostex FT-17H tweeter ($35 ea.). I haven't had the chance to try them yet. And many have mod'd the x-over from a 3rd order to a quasi-1st order with the 12" driver naturally rolling off.

randytsuch · « **Reply #5 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 06:26 am »

Quote from: matsukawags

I recently built the Hammer Dynamic Speakers with all the tweaks from the web site including the outstanding Fostex FT17H tweeter. My favorite speaker is the Quad57 which I own and which I compare all other speakers to especially female vocals. The Hammer Dynamics are the closest sounding I have heard to my Quads. Of course it has more bass and treble and perhaps because of the additional treble it sounds more detailed than the Quads. The Quads though are still my favorite for listening to pure voca ...

Hi Gene,
This is really interesting information. I used to own a pair of quad's, but I sold them a few years ago because of their low WAF. She would not let me set them up anywhere because they take up so much room. If the Hammers deliver vocals/mids near quad quality, and have reasonable bass to boot, seems like a winner.
Wonder what the wife will say if I tell her I am going to build some speakers?
BTW, if you ever want to tweak your quads, Ric at EVS once told me he knew some good quad tweaks. I had already sold mine, so I did not pay attention to the details, but it sounded like you can make them even better.

Randy

matsukawags · « **Reply #6 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 06:27 am »

Darkmoebius,
I have all 3 tweeters and the Fostex Tweeter makes a huge improvement as you must have heard from everyone who tried them, I haven't tried padding the tweeter with different values yet, currently just using an 1/2 ohm resistor but it works fine for now. I also am running without the low pass filter on the woofer (eliminate the coil) but I actually have it installed but not connected inside of the cabinet). I also am running with just the single cap on the tweeter. I've been enjoying the Hammers too much to really tear it appart and begin tweaking again.

Really curious though if anyone has actually did a side by side comparison with the Hammers and other Horn Speakers such as the Lowther Medallions or Nagaoka-sans Fostex horns. I'm really interested in building a horn speaker some day.

By the way, in Japan I saw examples of the Fostex Speakers built with the same Baltic Birch ply I used but they actually butt jointed it so that the plys would show. This would be so much simpler than the mitered joints I did. The way they finished their speakers with the Lacquer made the ply look so beautiful.

v/r
Gene

matsukawags · « **Reply #7 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 06:49 am »

Randytsuch,

Thanks for the info on the Quads. Yes the Quads are very imposing and do dominate the room. And that's why I don't use them all the time, however, I do have them plugged in constantly. The Quads are not too efficient but you don't have to play them loud to enjoy them. I often play them late at night when I can't play my music loud anyway. By the way, Quads are pretty costly to maintain but I've been told by a Quad expert that the later models break down even more often than my original Quads.

By the way, the Hammers sound great at low volumes and late at night too.

Gene

darkmoebius · « **Reply #8 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 07:18 am »

Hey matsukawags,

Hey, why the hell is everything in this post centered?

I guess I'm going to be ordering those Fostex soon! I gotta agree with you about the Hammer's bass, there's no boominess in my room. And the midrange is soooo good! I can't wait until I can finally build an amp capable of unleashing it's full potential.

BTW, the pro cabinet maker that I contacted suggested using no-void baltic birch ply rather than MDF. I think he had some extra from a previous project lying around.

Anyway, I'd read a few posts on other forums about the Baltic ply's superior quality. Although, I remember saying that not all Baltic Birch's are made the same.

How can I tell what is good Birch ply and what isn't?

What are the advantages?

I saw some pictures of one guys cabinets where he simply added a finish to the sanded ply and it looked pretty damn good. I, myself, am teeterring between darker or lighter veneers like bloodwood and maple.

JohnR · « **Reply #9 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 07:44 am »

I've used void-free maple-apple ply with good results, both cosmetically and sonically (that I noticed, never built out of MDF to compare or anything). I think you want to look at the number of plies, 13 or so for 3/4" indicates a high quality ply. The surface grade can be different too.

matsukawags · « **Reply #10 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 07:47 am »

Darkmoebius,

Sorry I am not an expert on Baltic Birch but the Baltic Birch I used is 3/4" 13 Ply and looks naturally beautiful, it comes in 5'X5' sheets at about $40 a sheet (contractor price). My friend who built the medallions recommended which Baltic Birch to buy. The reason I chose to just miter the joints was to simplify the finishing. I just sprayed some min-wax polyurethane clear gloss on it after sanding it. I don't recommend mitering it like I did in retrospect since the plywood layers are easy to chip. If you are good at veneering, that would be great. Also, if I were to do another speaker I would do it like the Japanese and just butt joint, sand and apply a nice clear finish to it with the ply showing on the edges. The Japanese apparently do not hide the plys but show them off.

I also heard that although MDF is denser than Baltic Birch, Baltic Birch is stiffer. I have not actually listened to the differences between MDF and Baltic Birch but MDF is definitely cheaper and easy to work with.

Gene

EDS_ · « **Reply #11 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 05:20 pm »

Quote from: matsukawags

Darkmoebius,

Sorry I am not an expert on Baltic Birch but the Baltic Birch I used is 3/4" 13 Ply and looks naturally beautiful, it comes in 5'X5' sheets at about $40 a sheet (contractor price). My friend who built the medallions recommended which Baltic Birch to buy. The reason I chose to just miter the joints was to simplify the finishing. I just sprayed some min-wax polyurethane clear gloss on it after sanding it. I don't recommend mitering it like I did in retrospect since the plywood lay ...

I have miter-cut all sorts of ply-wood with great results (never for speakers) using my table saw with an 80 tooth thin kerf (1/8 in.--they make a 3/32 kerf I think) Forrest blade with a zero clearance table insert.

Forrest blades are greatness.

But, I like the Japanese look as well. With modern glues I bet there is little gained by the increased glue area miter joints offer.

mgalusha · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 09:07 pm »

Wow! Thanks for all the responses. I figured I might get one or two but it's nice to have some feedback. I have read quite a bit of stuff on the single driver forum but it never hurts to ask around.

Have any of you ever driven them with a high powered SS amp? Not that they need the power but I don't have anything very low powered. My PP tube amp is 100wpc and the SS gear is 300.

Thanks, Mike

JLM · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 10:04 pm »

I've heard one example of the Hammer's.

Unfortunately the owner wasn't there (it was a small audio fest) to defind himself.

He had modded them several times and even modded the amp he was using. But after all that modding they sounded very poor (recessed treble, muddy bass, no deep bass, constipated, no edges to individual sounds).

Lessons:

1. You can go mod crazy.

2. Keep one speaker "straight" so that you have a reference.

3. Don't leave crummy equipment around for people to hear and post about.

bluesky · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 11:56 pm »

Hi!

Thanks for all this great information. I too have looked at the Single Driver site and liked what I read about the Hammer Dynamics. I have almost finished my Aksa 55 watt Nirvana amps and trying to decide on speakers. I will get Hugh Dean's Aksonic speaker kit but would like to try the Hammer Dynamics later on when money permits.

I would like some feedback on what it was like building the Hammer kits, did people find it fairly straight forward and did it have well documented instructions?

Cheers, Ian
Brisbane, Australia

matsukawags · « **Reply #15 on:** 19 Jun 2003, 01:24 am »

bluesky,

The Hammer Kit is pretty straight forward (rectangular box), but in order to get the best out of it I really recommend looking at the Single Driver Web Site and reading the Super 12 tweaks. I would ask Colleen if she would sell a version of her kit with only the Bass/Midrange drivers and purchase the Fostex FT17h Tweeters and upgraded crossover parts from somewhere else (also won't need all the parts if doing the 1st order crossover). Or perhaps purchasing better crossover parts from Colleen. The Deflex Subwoofer Panels are pretty costly but from what I have heard is a necessity. I installed a Deflex Subwoofer Panel and 3 other regular Deflex Panel inside of each enclosure. I would search on the web for prices for the Deflex Panels, it varies greatly from store to store. I also used the recommended wires. Since I mitered the joints I had to recalculate the dimensions, the kit is based on butt joints. I also used glue blocks but I did my own thing and did not follow the exact dimensions from the kit.

Also, since the fostex tweeter is larger than the other two tweeters you cannot mount it in front of the woofer/midrange unit. I saw a nice photo of someone recently installing the tweeter on the cabinet face slightly to the top right/left of the main driver as a mirror image.

BTW stay on the small side of the speaker diameter, the dimensions given is a pretty weird e.g. 0.10 of an inch. You can always increase the size of the hole but you cannot decrease it once you cut it out.

Also I used the vertical hardwood (koa) braces all along the vertical edges of each side/top/bottom as much as I could to brace the Baltic Birch.

v/r
Gene

randytsuch · « **Reply #16 on:** 19 Jun 2003, 02:51 am »

Hi guys,
This is turning out to be a very helpful thread, thanks for all the information.
Have a couple other questions,

Darkmoebius,
I was just wondering how much you are paying for your new cabinets. I would probably pay someone at least to cut the wood up for me, and wondering how much it will cost.

Gene,
Do you have any pics of your speakers online? It would be very cool to see what they look like. And for those of us not into woodworking, what's a mitered joint? I probably know what it is, but am unsure of the term.

Anyone,
You guys ever hear of this Steve Brown
http://myhifisite.50megs.com/speakerkits.html
He makes "kits" for the HD speaker cabinet. Wondered how they are. I would go for a baltic birch kit with a removable back.

Randy

matsukawags · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Jun 2003, 05:49 am »

Randytsuch,

Sorry but I don't have a digital camera, plus the grain on the Baltic Birch is really subdued, a camera could not really capture it properly. At night it looks just like white colored speakers but during the day you can see and appreciate the grain.

A mitered joint is just a joint that has 45 degree angle cuts that join together. Having 45 degree angle joints gives more surface for gluing but I also used glue blocks which adds some strength to the joints.

Gene

Ulas · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 Jun 2003, 05:01 pm »

Mike,
I heard the HD Super-12 at VSAC2001 and I wasn't impressed. I built some highly regarded FR speakers (Nagaoka Swans currently listed for sale in the Trading Post) and they did not meet my expectations. My point is: FR is not for everyone and you should listen to a speaker before making a purchase decision.