What to upgrade next?

CButterworth · « **on:** 8 Sep 2006, 09:14 pm »

I am in bit of a predicament, as most of us probably are, in that I don't have a plentiful supply of cash to buy expensive audio gear. That said, I had been planning to build a pair of the GR-Research AV3's this Fall to replace my current speakers (Polk rt600i). However, my cd-transport has begun to vibrate badly, so I was also thinking of a new cd-player.

Anyway, I recently dared to set foot in a high end audio store (talk about a proponderance of tubes, but what sublime sound!) to look at the Music Hall cd25.2. The sales person, suggested that I invest as much as possible on my source, and worry about upgrading other items later. He recommended the new Rega Apollo over the Music Hall CD25.2 and the Music Hall Maverick. Now, $1K seems like a lot of money, and it would mean postponning new speakers for a year.

What do folk reckon? Should I splurge on a new Rega Apollo and wait a year for new speakers? Should I get the Music Hall cd25.2 AND the GR-Research kit, and maybe compromise on the source?

At the moment, I am edging towards buying the Rega Apollo, afterall the reviews have been pretty darned good.

My current system is:

1. Toshiba - the one that everyone was raving about for $60.00. Non-modified, and the drive has begun to seriously vibrate Digital out into:
2. Art Di/o - non modified save for tube removal, crystal dampening, and new jacks, new PSU
3. Homebrew passive preamp with Elma source selector and volume using Alps 50K pot in shunt mode
4. AKSA 55N amp (see Aspen forum) with VenHaus power cable
5. Polk rt600i floorstanding

I'd appreciate your opinions.

Charlie

Mortsnets · « **Reply #1 on:** 8 Sep 2006, 09:42 pm »

I am in the same boat, outboard DAC, or replace cdp, new speakers, versus new amp which one first and how much to spend. Everything I want seems to cost over $1k which is my audio budget for the year.

$1k does seem alot to pay, especially since you weren't complaining about the transport/dac combo before the Toshiba died.

I have read good things about the Music Hall (and Cambridge) cdps.

Another alternative is a used CDP which could be used as a transport if you are still happy with your DAC. Used Rega Planets go for about $300 and make a nice transport. Going used lets you have an extended evaluation and then resell if the component didn't work in your system.

I think I would get by with a cheapo cdp and upgrade speakers first then try to home audition good but affordable cdp or transport in my system, if they were not adequate I would save my pennies for a better (more expensive) digital source.

Wow, I can now take my own advice.

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #2 on:** 8 Sep 2006, 09:56 pm »

I'd spend the money where it makes the most impact -- the speakers. Cambridge, NAD, Marantz have decent CD players in the $500 ballpark. I'd probably go with the entry level NAD or Cambridge.

I use a Cambridge D500SE in my office system and have no complaints after 6 years.

JLM · « **Reply #3 on:** 9 Sep 2006, 01:42 am »

Charlie,

Obviously the saleman had a vested interest in selling you his CDP. I'd consider an Oppo 970 universal player for $150 (try it with or without the DAC) and get the speakers. It's supposed to be the current value leader like your Toshiba 3960 was. Later on it could move into video duty elsewhere in the house.

I agree with Bob, speakers affect the sound more than any other component.

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #4 on:** 9 Sep 2006, 02:58 am »

Charlie,

You've probably already made up your mind on the AV3s, but you might consider the AV2s mated with a good sub instead. You'll end up with a much better speaker system and it can be built incrementally.

I think the AV2 should be electronically high-passed when used with a sub even though their web site says otherwise.

Food for thought.

-- Bob

JLM · « **Reply #5 on:** 9 Sep 2006, 03:28 am »

Good point again Bob, but why not then go with the AV-1?

IMO the advantages of a simple woofer/tweeter is improved vertical imaging for audio, cheaper.

IMO the advantage of a MTM is adherence to the THX standard, higher power handling capacity.

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Sep 2006, 06:28 am »

JLM, my thinking was that the AV2 would be less of a shock from the Polk floorstanders until a sub was added.

warnerwh · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Sep 2006, 06:57 am »

Speakers should be your priority.

Rocket · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Sep 2006, 01:06 pm »

Hi,

I've made a number of equipment changes in my system over the last few years and i believe the biggest improvement will be your speakers. To obtain the best results obviously every component is important but if you are on a budget your speakers should be your first priority.

If your toshiba player is flaky replace it with another cheap one and possibly modify your art dio. I heard a modified one recently and it was pretty good.

The hifi salesman at the hifi store has a vested interest in you buying the rega cdp.

Regards

Rocket

lcrim · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 Sep 2006, 01:34 pm »

CDP's are obsolete. Make the move to PC based audio. There has been the inevitable Luddite reaction to PC based technology from some but since your CDP is going, now is the time to make the move. Quality per dollar spent and convenience are enormous in comparison.
Whether you choose ethernet or USB as the transfer medium, there is plenty of online support here and elsewhere online to help you through the transition.

JLM · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Sep 2006, 01:48 pm »

I agree with lcrim, but only if your computer savy.

Wireless Squeeze Box sell for $300 (plus hard disk space) and makes for a very nice/elegant solution. It requires you to rip CD's, but then offers desktop and remote access to all your music and internet audiostreaming with a digital volume control (no pre-amp needed). It's small, but has a nice large display. Software for ripping, organizing, and lossless compression (typical compressed audiophile quality CD takes 400 MB of space) are available for free. Sound quality is reported to be pretty good. This is just one example of this sort of product.

Wayne at Boulder Cable (see circle below) can load it up with various modification options to provide extremly good sound quality. (My modded SB sounds better than the Sony 7700/ack dAck! v.2 I had before.)

If you're not computer comfortable, Olive offers a $900 CDP/audio computer. Looks like a CDP, does everything the Squeeze Box does and more without needing a PC (or internet if you just use it to listen to your library). Doesn't require you to rip to hear a CD. Uses a laptop hard drive (no fans). It can be modded too for better sound.

As lcrim stated the age of reasonably priced CDPs is coming to an end with these sorts of products and the proliferation of inexpensive universal players, and MP3 players (that unfortunately don't sound as good). Chip manufacturers are pulling out of the CD business as the demand is drying up.

CButterworth · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Sep 2006, 01:58 pm »

OK, so maybe a new CD-player is not what I need.

JLM...how do you like your Bob Brines speakers? I had looked at these as a possible speaker, although the Fostex 200A drivers are expensive. So, I had considered the LT-2000 which uses either the FE206E or FE207E. My only consideration is the cost of the parts to build the filters. Bob emailed me a while ago with an estimate of the filter costs, I'll need to dig-up that email and consider it.

LCRIM.....I have been told that SACD and DVD-A are certainly dead, and I don't own any. Most, if not all of my music cd's have been transferred to iTunes as lossless files. However, I am unsure if I really want to have to boot-up the computer, and then what if another family member wants to use it? We are also a Mac household, so would be largely limited to iTunes, which does not play upsampled 24 bit music anyway. It does appear, however that the Squeezebox is very popular and effective, especially with the Bolder mods.

Anyway, thank-you for all your replies, I really appreciate the input,

Charlie

JLM · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Sep 2006, 04:48 pm »

Bob Brines sums up the sound of his speakers quite well (or at least the way I would). I find the very detailed Lowther sound takes away from the emotive aspects of listening, but are far superior to typical Fostex drivers. The F200A used in the FTA-2000 is a different beast altogether from other Fostex drivers. IMO Lowthers and typical Fostex drivers sound thin (lack midbass) and forward (midrange shout).

I'm the guy who commissioned the first pair of FTA-2000, so I'm very prejudice (and happy with them). I'm a single driver fan and transmission line guy since the 70's. Bob does good work and is a gentleman to deal with. His kits are plenty cheap enough and help avoid delivery woes.

Like most single driver designs they play loud enough for typical home room sizes and at reasonable volume levels (I'm not a kid anymore), but won't play as loud as some (small Xmax). They're not incredibly loud or dynamic like a compression horn (or a Lowther). And like any 8 inch driver sans whizzer cone, they will "beam" at higher frequencies, but its a natural, even effect that is only a problem if you're sitting in the wrong place for serious listening (well off to the side).

With single driver designs the driver has no place to hide, any shortcomings will be revealed. Like any speaker, the cabinet has little effect on the sound above 200 Hz. And when you consider the price of the drivers ($375 each

), you must also look at the total cost of the speaker $1600/pair) and compare it to what else is out there. Most speakers retail for 4 and more times the cost of drivers/crossovers. So for a typical $1600/pair speaker that means about $50 to 75 drivers are used. Quality of sound must suffer in comparison. (The cost for the compensation circuit components is chicken feed, don't worry about it.) The FTA-2000s have been compared to $4000 speakers. Most standmount designs at this price require a sub and stands that would double the price. For example the $1450/pair GR Research A/V-3 uses $329 of drivers and crossovers (kit price) in a transmission line design to achieve similar specifications with $26 and $50 drivers, but (not to slam GR at all) I can't imagine the quality being even close.

Single driver designs offer very significant coherence, imaging, and active (one amp per driver) advantages while focusing on the all important midrange. The bass output of the FTA-2000s is miles beyond any other single driver speaker (it freaks out most single driver fans) thanks mostly to the Fostex F200A drivers. Properly done transmission line bass must be heard to be believed (deep, musical, and fast). The heavy alnico magnets have a special smooth sound of their own.

And doing DIY or custom builds (like Bob does) means that the design/finishes can be tweaked to your liking.

CButterworth · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Sep 2006, 04:49 pm »

I do vaguely remember reading that the single-driver speakers were not as good with complex music as regular speakers. We listen to a mixture of rock, classical, folk, and new age (not necessarily in that order), and by rock, we mean the likes of Alan Parsons, Pink Floyd, old Genesis, etc....

Now my wife (who would not consider herself audiophile, but knows what she likes) presented me with a series of questions about what to buy next.

Her rationale was for a new CD-player because:

1. we have lots of CD's
2. Our music is also on our Mac, but why would a digital audio stream be better than a good cd-player?
3. As for audio streaming and downloads. Well, she says, most folk want the latest hits, not even whole albums. They want to play them on their cell phones, or in the car, so why should companies expend valuable bandwidth on audiophile quality music files, when lossy MP3's would do?
4. As yet, there is no strong successor to CD, and when one does arrive, it will likely have anti-piracy capabilities that would thwart a person copying it onto their computer, even if legally purchased.
5. Consider the huge number of cd's being released each year.
6. As for new speakers, she has warned me to wait until we build a dedicated two-channel audio listening room.

Her logic is very persuasive, although I have amonth to really decide what to do........

Regards,
Charlie

JLM · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Sep 2006, 10:38 pm »

I've heard the complex music/single driver conspiracy too and really don't what they're talking about. If the price of the Fostex F200A scares you, Bob Brines' FT1600 Mk II may be up your alley. It's more efficient, smaller, but doesn't go quite so low, uses an inferior driver, and would be just as hard to build.

One of the advantages with a Squeeze Box (or Olive) is that you can feed it various formats. I'm not the computer guru to answer why audio via PC should sound better, but as I understand the PC is way faster/smarter and so can read the disc without error or jitter. Plus with an external converter you avoid the RF noise and dirty power within the PC. Terry Cain (of Cain & Cain) was one of the early promoters of audio via PC and quickly gave up on SACD and DVDa.

Your wife's questions regarding bandwidth would better be couched in terms of why the industry markets the way they do. Look at DVD's that you can buy for the same price as a CD or rent for a buck. The RIAA top dogs usually get blamed for the downfall of audio by not being open to change. The RIAA has been ripping off artists for decades, forcing them to go on tour (as they make almost nothing from album sales. But now artists can record without fancy studios thanks to techical advancements and can market via the internet. Say nothing about napster, iTunes, and the like.

Who can say what format/technology will develop in the next few years, but I doubt it would be anything but electronic download in form. The audiophile world hopes the RIAA doesn't screw us out of at some sort of audiophile grade format, because if it does all this CD equipment will be going the way of the Victrola.

bacobits1 · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Sep 2006, 11:38 pm »

"Inferior Driver"? Come on. I have the Brines 1600II's and they never fail to please ask anybody who has been over here. I do use a HSU VTF MKII Sub though so I don't care what bass comes from the design. I will always have a Sub. Bob himself uses the FT1600II's. Come on over and hear "Black Betty"!! On 8 Watts no less. WTF?

As long as I'm on low watt tubes I will always have single driver speakers.

JLM is right about value. Where the hell you going to get a 85 lb. box built like this for $1050 (in my case) delivered. These ain't going anywhere for awhile.

Den

Scott F. · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 Sep 2006, 01:49 am »

Quote from: CButterworth

I do vaguely remember reading that the single-driver speakers were not as good with complex music as regular speakers.

I completely agree with JLM and bacobits, the 'single driver doesn't do complex music' statement is complete nonsense. I've listened to more single driver speakers (Lowther and Fostex based) than most and I'm here to tell you that they are phenominal on complex music. It really doesn't matter whether it was a Voight Pipe (Cain & Cain, Teresonic), MLTL (Brines, Martin King), or a true back loaded horn, they all sounded great on both simple and complex music.

Quote from: CButterworth

Now my wife (who would not consider herself audiophile, but knows what she likes) presented me with a series of questions about what to buy next.

Her rationale was for a new CD-player because:

1. we have lots of CD's
2. Our music is also on our Mac, but why would a digital audio stream be better than a good cd-player?
3. As for audio streaming and downloads. Well, she says, most folk want the latest hits, not even whole albums. They want to play them on their cell phones, or in the car, so why should companies expend valuable bandwidth on audiophile quality music files, when lossy MP3's would do?
4. As yet, there is no strong successor to CD, and when one does arrive, it will likely have anti-piracy capabilities that would thwart a person copying it onto their computer, even if legally purchased.
5. Consider the huge number of cd's being released each year.
6. As for new speakers, she has warned me to wait until we build a dedicated two-channel audio listening room.

1. - Cool
2. - The elimination of transport issues (jitter) is the primary concern. Secondary is error correction. I surmized along with a few others that when you rip your CDs to your hard drive, the ripping software does a far better job of extracting the bits and bytes from your CD than your CD player. In other words, the error correction software in the computer works better than the error correction software in your CD player.
3 - Don't worry about MP3's. You won't be ripping your CDs to MP3 format anyway. You'll be using FLAC or some other true lossless audio codec.
4 - Oh, yes there is. Its the Squeezebox and products like it. No foolin', sell your high end CD players while you can fella's cuz within a few short years there won't be a market for them. You can take that one to the bank, honest.
5 - Great, buy 'em and rip 'em to your hard drive in FLAC
6 - Thats cool. Your Polks will do you fine until then.

You will need to spend boatloads of bucks (think multi-thousands) to get the equivilant sound you will from a Squeezebox, your external DAC and a decent power supply.

Trust the guys that are pushing the computer based platforms. They know what they are talking about.

Just my $.02

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 Sep 2006, 03:56 am »

A little long...about downloading and music....but interesting..Digital Music Survey...

JLM · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 Sep 2006, 10:26 am »

Sorry for the misunderstanding Den,

Only meant that the Fostex FE167E is inferior to the F200A (as you might expect at 6+ times the cost). I've heard the FE167E in Terry Cain's Abby's (voight pipe - less bass) and liked them very much on the small jazz that was being played. BTW I have an original Hsu VTF-2 in my HT system.

Loftprojection · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 Sep 2006, 11:40 am »

Ya, I would get the AV3 and a Squeezebox instead of a CDP. I've just replaced my $2k plus CDP with a RedWineAudio modded Squeezebox and I could not be happier, just wondering why it took me so much time to do so. I'm also building the AV3 (plus AV3s and AV1rs). I'm not quite finished yet since it is the first time I do this it takes a lot of time to do it correctly. I can tell you that it is a lot of fun though. I'm sure I will enjoy the speakers very much when I'm finished but in the mean time it is really fun building them.

Hope this helps with your decision.