[jackman]

Carlman,

The lack of spellcheck on this forum is a bigger pain to me than manufacturers posting in non-mfg boards.  If you don't like spelling and grammatical errors, please don't read anything I post!  I don't like the "hall monitor" approach to things.  Some sniveling types who feel that it's their duty to report anyone who breaks their sacred rules.  Give me a break!  Frank didn't do anything that hasn't been done a dozen times by other manufacturers or manufacturer's agents.  That's why I didn't think Frank deserved the abuse he received.  As I stated earlier, I thought it was nit-picky.  Either way, as I stated earlier, who cares?

J

PS: is this the line in which you would suggesting using "doesn't" instead of "don't"???

Manufacturers coming on and saying "this product kills everything out there..." don't do anyone any good

If so, although this line reads awkwardly (I was typing quickly!), the word "don't" is grammatically correct.  The word "manufacturers" is plural and "doesn't" would be singular, so "don't", the plural would be appropriate.  Please let me know if you are referring to another use of "don't" and "doesn't".

[randytsuch]

My 2 cents on monitors,
I like my Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitors (even though I am not thinking about getting new speakers   )  They show up used on Audiogon for less then $1000 sometimes, and I think there are not many better speakers for less then $1000.

Having said that, I am thinking about Omega's (but they seem to like tube amps), the Green Mountain Audio Europas (not sure if I can hear them first) and GR research Dulcieos.  I also want to hear the Onix ref 1's.  There is also a guy down in San Diego named Ed Frias of EFE technology that is supposed to make a good speaker.  He designed a cheap DIY speaker that was posted on audiorevew a while back, and it had good reviews from the people who made it.  He is supposed to be a good xover designer, but unless you live in so cal, hard to heard his speakers unless you buy them.

Another speaker I have not seen mentions is the Joseph Audio RM-7.  I will probably go listen to that one again, he knows how to make nice sounding speakers.

Good luck,
Randy

[avahifi]

Sorry, I did not realize I was breaking the rules, especially after reading the long Europa speaker advertisement posted in this thread (missed the fact that it was posted by a user, not the producer).  I never got the e-mail informing me I had broken the rules.  Won't happen again!

So anyway, who would like a pair of Biro L/1 speakers to evaluate for a month at no obligation (except to return them like new or keep and pay for them)?  No charge for shipping either way.

Frank Van Alstine

[jackman]

Very cool offer!  I hope someone in Chicago takes you up on it.  I hope Audiojerry takes you up on it!  I'm traveling too much to do it justice but if they are at Audiojerry's, I'll make sure to check them out on a "Real" system.  

Jack

[Mad DOg]

Sorry, I did not realize I was breaking the rules, especially after reading the long Europa speaker advertisement posted in this thread (missed the fact that it was posted by a user, not the producer).  I never got the e-mail informing me I had broken the rules.  Won't happen again!

So anyway, who would like a pair of Biro L/1 speakers to evaluate for a month at no obligation (except to return them like new or keep and pay for them)?  No charge for shipping either way.

Frank Van Alstine

Hello Frank,

I would love to audition your speakers and compare them to the Onix Ref 1s that are currently in my 2 channel system! What do I need to do to get the ball rolling? Thanks.

MD

[John Casler]

Wow!  Just found this thread, because I was wondering why I recieved something from "AudioCircle" about my posts.  Then I read Danny's post below where he names me as some kind of "sales pitch offender".

I also just briefly ran through some of the posts and found many great opinions.

In my "defense", I can only plead ignorance of the rules, since I post rather freely and many times much information or opinion.  

Also I haven't paid much attention to the particular area I post in, since I clearly identify myself and my affiliations, I don't generally post differently.

While I am a VMPS dealer, (not a distributor), I think I should explain that the reason I post about VMPS is "I LIKE THEM".

I became a dealer not for financial remuneration (let me assure you that is not much) but because I like the product.  Plain and Simple.  

Additionally, I am a dealer for 25 other SPEAKER brands, including Snell, Wraith, PCM, Energy, Athena, JAMO, JBL Synthesis, Krell, KEF, and etc.

I talk, own and write about what I like.  I like to help others not only enjoy it too, but get good pricing.  I also feel it valuable to exlain what it is, that I feel makes the equipment good or great.

This makes it a little difficult (now that I know what the rules are) to post really about anything, since I have the connections to sell products in many areas and brands.

I see other enthusiasts who may not be dealers, per se, but who definatley recieve "benefits" via free use of products, products themselves, and other perks, which swells their enthusiasm for certain manufactureres or lines.  That is cool.  

High End Audio "IS" a community, isn't it??

While I can be quite verbose , I can generally back up everything I state with a reason for the opinion and whether it is subjective or objectively arrived at.

I feel that Frank's comment was informative, honest and well meaning, and should not have in any way have been perceived as "Drum Beating" or an advertisment.

I felt the same way about my comments since they are motivated in the spirit of information and sharing rather than "can I make a sale"

I am also in the Exercise and Fitness Business (my real job) and if I encourage people to exercise and eat healthy am I giving a "SALES PITCH"?  I don't think so.  I'm offering information and motivation to enjoy what I enjoy.

Posting a sales pitch for VMPS every time someone asks about speakers can get old, John Casler (nothing against VMPS).

The "consider this post" does not bother me at all, but he lays it on a bit thick sometimes, and when a continued sales pitch shows through it does not look good.

Anyway, I hope my views were worth the 2 cents...

Danny,

Maybe the above comments help you understand my motivation.  I have reivewed my most recent post regarding a floor standing speaker and find it informative and I clearly identified myself as a "dealer".  It's in my signature too.

If the "discount" reference was in question, I made it to define the price range of the speaker to AudioCircle Members via dealers.

I find it no more "promoting" than you refering to the how you "need to send a pair of Diluceo's up to all you guys in the Chicago area for you to try"

I find that fine too.

I might write large amounts of information, but it has "nothing" to do with Brian, or VMPS, but it has to do with ME and my set up and "USE" of VMPS and other Audio products and my listening preferences.

I can see how difficult it can be to "sort" this type of situation out, since Frank, and Danny, and guys like me, all got into this hobby a little deeper, because of our love of it.

Frank is a Legend, Danny is a "budding legend" and I'm just a very enthusiastic supporter of High End Audio.

At this point I think that as long as dealers, and manufacturers clearly define themselves, most any non-commercial, "informative" post should be reasonable.

If you examine mine closely, they are informative, defined and stated as my opinion, and if I'm not mistaken I clearly state that several times in most posts.

Danny's interpretation of this as a "sales pitch" is incorrect, and his opinion.  I for one would welcome any and all thoughts, ideas, preferences and concepts that he uses to create his speakers.

I wouldn't call it a sales pitch however.  I'd call it sharing his enthusiasm for his work, love, and product.  Others might feel differently.

[jackman]

I don't know why, but I feel very good about the way this whole thing turned out!  Great example of a "community" self-policing without the "hall monitor" approach in which people take names and point fingers whenever someone breaks their sacred rules.  This is the way it should work!

Thanks,

Jack

[TheeeChosenOne]

Yes, EFE Technology speakers are supposed to be amazing for their asking price.  

For instance, the $1000 T-22 bookshelf has been favorably compared to the $6k JM Labs Mini Utopia and $4k JM Reynaud bookshelf.  Clear, crisp, dynamic and life-like is what they're described as.

The little $1500 T-35 floorstander has deep, tight bass (20hz @ -8db) and has replaced B&W $8k Nautilus floorstanders in users homes.

The $890 B-15 bookshelf (45 hz bass) has also been favorably reviewed against Revel m20 and B&W's stuff at $2k.

The monster T-60 has been also favorably compared to speakers costing $20k+.

Only one caveat:   [/b]
Ed "Mr. Crossover" Frias, won't let you audition them via mail.  You buy them, you keep them is his policy.  Look at audioreview.com for ratings.  His speakers are emphatically well reviewed--all 5* ratings.

==============================================

Company Information From His  Emailed Catalog



[Admin note: Copied text removed. Please see http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/faq.php#9]

[jackman]

Only one caveat:
Ed "Mr. Crossover" Frias, won't let you audition them via mail. You buy them, you keep them is his policy. Look at audioreview.com for ratings. His speakers are emphatically well reviewed--all 5* ratings.

Maybe I'm wrong, but is this the same "Mr. Crossover" that designed the speaker whose crossover needed a complete overhaul (that is now being advertised on the GR Research website)?  According to the GR site, the speakers had some major crossover issues that Danny had to fix.  I think it's the same company.  Either way, I'd never buy a product from a company that didn't have some kind of return policy or at least a demo policy.  I've listened to too many "five star" products that didn't seem to measure up in my experience.  Not that Ed's stuff is in this category, but I'd never buy something without a return policy.

Jack

[TheeeChosenOne]

Ed's the guy who's done crossover work on those cheap BIC bookshelf speakers on Ubid that were listed last year.  Users say his crossover work has "day and night" transformed that bookshelf into something fierce.  He also has a DIY kit which has also gotten raves.

He certainly does have quite a legendary reputation with crossover design.......that's for sure.  I doubt he could f*ck up a crossover based on his "reputation" with customers and DIYers.

According to him, the drivers he sources for his speakers outperform Peerless (Denmark), and in his experience, far more reliable than SEAS and Scanspeak.


.....Yes, it's really a shame he is such a stickler for his "no return unless it's broken" policy (3 yr warranty btw).  I'm sure he loses a lot of potential business b/c of this.  I guess he doesn't care.  His customers, though, are extremely enthusiastic.  They apparently have taken the "blind faith" plunge with his products and not regretted it one bit.  

I've talked to several of his customers via email and they swear by his products.  The only upgrade they're thinking of is buying the next speaker up the EFE food chain, including the "venerable" $4.5k B-60 monster floorstander which is said to better $20k+ speakers.

[Danny Richie]

Don't get me wrong John, it really doesn't bother me what you say about VMPS or any other products.

I can understand your excitement about good products that offer good value, etc. We are all that way.

But, as a VMPS dealer what you have to say will be viewed differently because you do profit from what you sell.

Regardless of your intentions people will take what you say with a grain of salt, and I agree with you identifying yourself as a dealer.

And I do think you lay it on a little thick, not just here but in other forums as well.

I have seen others respond to you in other forums as if they thought you were laying it a little thick too.

I have never even commented on it before. Like I said, it does not bother me, but it was pretty easy to use you as an example as the conversation regarded dealers, or distributors, as well as manufacturers.

I do not know if your posting about the VMPS products break the rules, bend them, push them, or whatever. When you do cross the line though someone will let you know. I also like the self policing concept. I am sure the moderators don't want to feel like policemen either. They have fun here too.

We have to just be a little more careful when we pass on information that is informative that it does not become more than that for one person or another. Then we make ourselfs look bad.

I find it no more "promoting" than you refering to the how you "need to send a pair of Diluceo's up to all you guys in the Chicago area for you to try"

One of those guys asked in another thread about when I was going to send out some demos of that model.

Hey now Frank is going to send out some samples? Great idea! Do I get any credit for that?  

All is cool here with me. Now more about speakers...

[TheeeChosenOne]

Mad Dog,
Since you live in the LA area and since you like shoot-outs, why don't you visit Ed Frias' office to listen to his speakers.  It seems like a true "contenda".

I think many people would be interested in your opinions as to how it compares with the VMPS 626r and Onix Ref1......

Maybe you could take Sa-Dono along as well...     Sh!t, I wished I was in LA for 2 weeks--what a great speaker market!

Ed's email/contact info. is:
EFESPKRS@aol.com
EFE TECHNOLOGY Products
1833 Hamilton Lane
Escondido, CA. 92029-5425
760-741-6525

[Woodsea]

I tend to agree with you, Danny.  There are a few VMPS nutz here at AudioCircle, me being one of them.  I have not heard your gorgeous speakers, and until I am ready to buy again, I don't want to, and have possible buyers remorse   If I see certain names in front of comments I am at a 90% certainty what products they will be raving about.  If you look after mine, I will be doling out positives about my equipment that I have purchased.  I admit that probably 30% of that reason is because I have layed out my hard-earned cash on it, and do not want to feel that I made a purchasing mistake.  Believe my I truly believe I did make the correct decision at the time.  I have heard Norh and really liked it, but they were not in my price range at the time.  My wife would have been happier if I had bought the 4.0s rather than the 626s and not because of the great discrepancy in cost   But I went more for function over form.
So, I believe that if someone is distributer or manufacturer and they are hyping their OWN product then there should be an emoticon with vendor under it.  So even us that only use 25% of our gray matter will know that there is fiscal bias behind good intention.
Hey everyone, have a great day and  

[Psychicanimal]

What do you mean by "no comment"?  I think it's pretty cool that Frank VA gives this type of input regarding his speakers.  For the record, I listened to the Biro's and thought they sounded pretty darn good.   They were owned by the guy who sold me my AVA gear.  He has owned tons of stuff over the years, had a house full of stereo gear but said he would NEVER sell his Biro speakers.  His wife and kids were sleaping so we couldn't crank them up but they sounded very good, even with the low watt (non-AVA) amp ...

I heard them Biro's.  Had one right in my face.  I really liked VA's hybrid power amp & his DAC.

No comment on the speakers.

[TheeeChosenOne]

I heard them Biro's.  Had one right in my face.
No comment on the speakers.

Ouch!  

"No Comment" is not a good sign.

[jackman]

I heard them Biro's. Had one right in my face. I really liked VA's hybrid power amp & his DAC.

No comment on the speakers.

You may be correct about this.  I listened to them at low volume level with a vinyl source (Linn TT), for a relatively short time...while I was negotiating to buy some gear.  The room had several treatments, was carpeted and we were not able to crank them up.  Not what I'd call critical listening, but they still sounded good!   I'm not a big fan of metal tweeters and, I'm frankly happy with my Ellis 1801's.  The new crossovers are very good so I'm set for a while.   I do hope to hear them on my AVA gear with my music if they work their way to Chicago.

J

[randog]

Me thinks you guys should lighten up on the manufacturers and give them a wide berth. It will quickly become obvious when they cross the line one too many times and it will quickly bite them in the ass without any help from thread police wannabees. One or two innocent crossings can be overlooked and instead y'all should be encouraging them to stray from their own forums to join in on the generic banter which they have more to offer from a technical standpoint than either you or I. Let's learn from them and not chase them away which is bound to happen if all the hawks continue to circle waiting for one to stub his toe.

Of course my feelings do *not* cross over to reps or salesmen whose intentions are highly suspect from the get-go and have little to offer from a technical perspective to help tip the scales in their favor for a benefit-of-doubt get-out-of-jail-free card. <whew>

Randog

[thp]

Wow, i finally got internet up again and I see soo many recommendations.  Thank to everyone for their recommenations and I'll have to go over this whole thread carefully and make a list of speakers to audition.

[JohnR]

... without any help from thread police wannabees.

This kind of comment really pisses me off. Everybody's an expert, as long as you don't have to do shit to prove it. The lesson I'm learning here is don't even bother asking people what they think, or they'll come up with this kind of smug bullshit. Am I reading that right?

We'll make a decision based on the votes and discussion in the other thread. Thanks.

JohnR

[DVV]

... without any help from thread police wannabees.

This kind of comment really pisses me off. Everybody's an expert, as long as you don't have to do shit to prove it. The lesson I'm learning here is don't even bother asking people what they think, or they'll come up with this kind of smug bullshit. Am I reading that right?

I second that. In addition, it should be discussed what "critical listening" is. It seems to me this is another term that is being flaunted about, most especially in case of speakers. From my experience, new ones take a good month to break in, really settle down.

Next, to be able to say you tested it, it should be tried in several rooms, with several sets of electronics, cables, etc. Then, and only then can you say you tested it. Auditioning any set of speakers in just one system is fine as far that system and that room are concerned, but says nothing about any other different set of parameters.

Cheers,
DVV