[Psychicanimal]

For all the kind comments our electronics get, I wonder why nobody has mentioned our Biro L/1 loudspeakers ($1595 a pair, black or natural oak)?  Go to www.audioreview.com and search for Biro and look at all the rave reviews.  They are what we are listening to when evaluating amp and preamp designs, and we certainly have not found their limits yet.

Frank Van Alstine

No comment.

[jackman]

What do you mean by "no comment"?  I think it's pretty cool that Frank VA gives this type of input regarding his speakers.  For the record, I listened to the Biro's and thought they sounded pretty darn good.   They were owned by the guy who sold me my AVA gear.  He has owned tons of stuff over the years, had a house full of stereo gear but said he would NEVER sell his Biro speakers.  His wife and kids were sleaping so we couldn't crank them up but they sounded very good, even with the low watt (non-AVA) amp that was driving them.  

Great suggestion Frank.  When I have more time this summer, I hope to include them in a shootout that would also include several highly rated speakers.

Jman

[Marbles]

Jackman,

I have emailed Frank re: the rules, but have not heard back.

FYI, the rules regarding manufacturers are (from the FAQ section):

Can I post in other areas of the site?
Yes, certainly! We recognize that the manufacturers here are themselves all keen audiophiles, and you are more than welcome to participate in all discussions on the site and share your experience and expertise. We do ask however that you limit commercially-oriented posts to your own circle or to Market Square.


As far as the Biro's go, I think you advancing thier recognition here, or Frank advancing them in his circle would be great.

I think Frank doing it here is not so good...........

[jackman]

Jackman,

I have emailed Frank re: the rules, but have not heard back.

FYI, the rules regarding manufacturers are (from the FAQ section):

Can I post in other areas of the site?
Yes, certainly! We recognize that the manufacturers here are themselves all keen audiophiles, and you are more than welcome to participate in all discussions on the site and share your experience and expertise. We do ask however that you limit commercially-oriented posts to your own circle or to Market Square.


As far as the Biro's go, I think you advancing thier recognition here, or Frank advancing them in his circle would be great.

I think Frank doing it here is not so good...........

Hi Marbles,
I have never read the "Rules" page (you've probably guessed as much), but I seem to recall a couple distributors for speaker lines liberally posting their "suggestions" or "preferences" for the main line they carry.  I don't recall you admonishing them for doing so unless it was done privately.  Frank may have broken the rules, but perhaps he was confused by the actions of sales agents for other companies doing the same thing without any wrist slapping...

Later,

Jman

[Mad DOg]

Jackman,

I have emailed Frank re: the rules, but have not heard back.

Hi Marbles,
I have never read the "Rules" page (you've probably guessed as much), but I seem to recall a couple distributors for speaker lines liberally posting their "suggestions" or "preferences" for the main line they carry.  I don't recall you admonishing them for doing so unless it was done privately.  Frank may have broken the rules, but perhaps he was confused by the actions of sales agents for other companies doing the same thing without any wrist slapping...

Later,

Jman

Hello Jackman!

I believe the others were doing so in their designated forum if I'm not mistaken...and I haven't seen any of them recommend their own product when asked by a member for recommendations. If the thread starter inquired in the Van Alstine area, I don't believe this would be an issue.

[JohnR]

It's true that there's been a certain amount of stretching, especially lately... if any of you guys would like to start a thread and Poll in Town Square to decide on a more detailed guideline to help the facilitators that would be great.

[jackman]

Okay, okay...this is too much like work.  It's really not a big deal but I have seen distributors or vendors for other brands suggesting their products on forums other than the manufacturers they represent.  Didn't see any admonishment from any moderators... but who cares?  I really don't care, but I fealt bad for Frank because he seemed to be singled out for something that is not totally uncommon.  Granted, the "distributors" are technically not owners of companies but the principle is pretty similar.  Heck, I remember a manufacturer attacking me because I posted an account of my actual listening experience (verified by another person in attendance and other people since) and don't recall any of the moderators reminding anyone of the rules when that happened.  

J

PS - In case you think I'm a hypocrite, I admit that I have broken this rule myself with  personal attacks on Lo Mein and DVV (maybe more but I can't recall at the moment).  Granted, it was for non-audio reasons but I admit guilt!  What's the point?  There is no point!  That's why I call this a pointless rant!

PSS- How long can a cartridge continue to hit that last groove on a record before it is perminantly ruined?  I am upstairs and can hear the constant pop, pop, pop, of my cartridge hitting the last groove but am too lazy to go down and lift the arm.  It's time!

[Marbles]

Jackman,

If you have specific examples of abuse, please let me know of them.

For God's sake man, get that cartridge!!!

[Mad DOg]

Jackman,

I'm with you...Don't really care either...I just wanna learn more about how to improve my musical enjoyment!  

[jackman]

MD,
You've made a great contribution to this site, I hope you continue to post about your experiences.  I have been really busy lately with a new job and unable to really enjoy my system.  Traveling 5 days a week is really wearing me out but at least I can escape every chance I get to cool sites like this and be reminded that there is more to life than work!

Thanks,
J

[mgalusha]

PSS- How long can a cartridge continue to hit that last groove on a record before it is perminantly ruined? I am upstairs and can hear the constant pop, pop, pop, of my cartridge hitting the last groove but am too lazy to go down and lift the arm. It's time!

Jack, you need one of these: http://www.expressimoaudio.com/lift/lift.html  Kinda pricy but a lot cheaper than a new cartridge/  

[Mad DOg]

MD,
You've made a great contribution to this site, I hope you continue to post about your experiences.  I have been really busy lately with a new job and unable to really enjoy my system.  Traveling 5 days a week is really wearing me out but at least I can escape every chance I get to cool sites like this and be reminded that there is more to life than work!

Thanks,
J

J,

Thanks for the compliment.... Made me blush... I have learned a great deal from your posts and experiences! Wish I was in your neck of the woods...We'd have a grand ol' time hooking up for listening sessions!

I know all about working so much that you don't have time to enjoy the system... While I don't travel, I do put in some very long hours...Don't burn yourself out...It just ain't worth it...

Take good care,
MD

[cyounkman]

... if any of you guys would like to start a thread and Poll in Town Square to decide on a more detailed guideline to help the facilitators that would be great.

Since I am the new guy, I will be a trooper and put up a thread.

I will save all of my venom for that thread, and let you off the hook here...

[wongstein]

I liked the Monitor Audio Gold Reference 10s, which are a very visually attractive two-way with limited, but satisfying and impactfull bass.  I've compared it to the Gold Reference 60s (a "full range" loudspeaker) and frankly, I was much more impressed by their little monitor.  I found the big 60s to be forward (too much speaker and not enough music), while the GR-10s were exceptionally dynamic and detailed, but very transparent and open sounding at once.  Lots of air and space.  Although the room was a little too small to get optimum soundstaging, I remember there being good image specificity and centering.  It was Diana Krall who, in my mind, is to audio dealerships as Stairway to Heaven is to guitar shops, but that's neither here nor there, she sounded real and present and natural - almost good even.  (I'm really asking for it, aren't I?).  I think I was listening to them through Musical Fidelity A3 CD player, and A3 integrated amp which are very sweet and clean as a set - also a nice value found on the used market, and well suited to the GR-10s.  I liked the GR-10s better than the PMC FB-1s as well, although the FB-1s have terrific bass that can't be coaxed from a monitor lest you should bounce them off a timpani.  Although the GR-10s were not as good in any regard as the Reference 3A De Capos, they stood out to me as a bargain and certainly worth building a decent sytem around.  The De Capos beg for at least another $10,000 worth of equipment, but with the GR-10s, I got the sense that you had a chance of finding "good enough" if you were inclined to go that way (but then you wouldn't be reading this, now would you?).  Anyway, I made a note to myself to recommend them to someone looking for a speaker around US$1,000.

[Danny Richie]

Since you guys are discussing it, here are my two cents on posting rules to manufactures.

Personally I try to avoid posting anything that even smells like an advertisement. If it sounds like a sales pitch it can turn everyone off.

Sometimes though a manufacturer has to post a follow up, a correction of information, or something.

Like here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=3088.msg25915#25915

If a product is good enough, people that have heard it will recommend it just as you guys have recommended our speakers in this thread (thanks).

But, personally I don't mind seeing a manufacturer post a reply in a public forum in regards to a post like this one.

If a guy post he is looking for a speaker that does this and that and fits this criteria and this price range, I would think it would benefit him the most if every manufacturer that had something that fits those needs to post some that says, of our product line we have this that fits your criteria, please consider this model, etc.

No sales pitch needed just give the requested info.

This can also be good if a manufacturer had something new that few may be aware of.

I think Frank Van Alstine's post was fine. A "consider this"... post I have no problem with. Links to reviews can be a little iffy maybe, but I do not care.

Unlike Frank, I do not wonder why they have not been mentioned. They are just not as well know.

Hey Frank, consider sending some out as samples to some of these guys. They have good equipment and good ears and will be glad to tell everyone if they are really better than anything 4 times the price or not.

Which reminds me. I need to send a pair of Diluceo's up to all you guys in the Chicago area for you to try. I will do that as soon as I can get a spare pair ready. This pair I have here now is headed off to Enjoy the Music for a review, so I will have to get a fresh pair finished up.

Now about distributors...

They need to be looked at just like manufacturers.

Posting a sales pitch for VMPS every time someone asks about speakers can get old, John Casler (nothing against VMPS).

The "consider this post" does not bother me at all, but he lays it on a bit thick sometimes, and when a continued sales pitch shows through it does not look good.

Anyway, I hope my views were worth the 2 cents.

[jackman]

The fact that I agree with Danny is not a surprize at all...but agreeing with Pez 100% is not something I find myself doing very often.  I have learned a lot about audio products by having people come to my house with their stuff (too many people on this forum to list!), having manufacturers loan me demo products, and going to stores and checking out what's new (most difficult because it's harder to do A/B tests.  I also learn from people who are not afraid to try new things and have the ability to capture their thoughts and experiences in a review (like Tyson).  

Manufacturers coming on and saying "this product kills everything out there..." don't do anyone any good.  The same goes for distributors who profit from selling certain brands...even if they carry "alternative" brands.  Manufacturers doing what Frank did don't bother me.  I think his post was legitimate and did not warrant the type of response he received.  Again, (IMO) certain "pet" manufacturers would not have met the type of admonishment Frank received and that's what made me angry.  I don't know Frank personally, he has never bought me a beer (it's never too late!) and I have never received a discount on any of his products.  Heck, i bought all of the stuff used (except the cartridge) so he technically has made next to nothing from me.  My comments (in defense of AVA) would have been the same even if I didn't own any of their products.  

This whole bruhaha is not worth the effort.  I do resent cowardly snipes who write things like "FYI".  If you have a problem with something someone does point it out.  

Jman

PS-maddog, I'm getting that "Lift" from express.  I love the counterweight (it came with my TT) and the AVA modded Grado cartridge sounds great.  According to the guy who set up my turntable (from Holm Audio) he liked the modded AVA better than all of the cartridges in its price range.  The only thing I don't like is that I can't use the album "Clamp" because it hits the "longhorns" on the cartridge. .. otherwise, it's very quiet and well made.

[Marbles]

Jackman,

With regard to your cowardly snipes comment.

Frank broke the rules as they currently stand and a complaint was made to me regarding it.

I do not read every thread, much less every post, so if a post bothers you, bring it to the attention of the moderator.

I don't think in this case your cowardly remark was warranted.

Also you should know that this was between Frank and I (which I still have not heard back from) privately, until physicanimal made his post and you came out swinging.  Your responsible as much as anyone for the turn the thread took.

[MaxCast]

Talk about a thread getting jacked.....
Could the Facilitator of this forum please move mfg. posting discussion
Here

Thank you

[Carlman]

If you have a problem with something someone does point it out....

I don't agree with that kind of thinking, it creates chaos. (especially amongst people that don't know each other)  So, should I say jackman's poor grammar and spelling really bug me....   'Surprize' is not a word.  Try using "doesn't" instead of "don't".    

That's just counter-productive to the point of a thread.  If you mean in general, and that you must 'let it out' when something bugs you, I disagree just as much.  Self-control can be a good thing.  It shows maturity (among other things) when you're not bothered and/or don't feel the need to react to everything that bothers you.

Back to the hijacked thread... Danny's comments were excellent.  I completely agree.  The VMPS comment really contrasts Frank's remarks and puts his post into perspective.

It's one thing to suggest something you sell and another to push your product down someone's throat.

Thanks, Danny!

-C

[TheeeChosenOne]

I think the Van Alstine post was fine.  He didn't lay it thick like others here.  He just wanted to raise his hand and say "Hey!  I'm over here too you know."  

Van Alstine has great equipment and his speakers are probably very good as well.  In the grand universe of speaker choices, it helped enlighten me and others of his speakers.