New integrated amp idea

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rustneversleeps

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New integrated amp idea
« on: 26 Aug 2006, 12:53 am »
I've read some of the posts on a new AVA integrated amp here, and the response from Frank is not be able to fit the preamp and amp into the same chassis.

Well, since Frank has been modifying the Dyna 70 and the Pas for years, how about creating a Super Ultra SCA-35 on a Dyna SCA-35 chassis. There are still tons of SCA-35 out there, building new circuits to make this Dyna classic better sure would be welcomed by all the Dyna fans out there.

I've been wondering why aren't there any mod for the MK III, II, and IV from Frank.

avahifi

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Re: New integrated amp idea
« Reply #1 on: 26 Aug 2006, 02:13 pm »
The reason we do not support the "MK" series of old Dyna amps is partially economic, partially engineering, and partially mechanical layout.

Economic:  nowhere nearly as many available as with the St-70 so the "pool" of possible clients is much less, likely too few to make careful engineering efforts and new board designs cost effective for us.

Mechanical:  These units all have very small PC cards and there is simply not enough real estate available for new circuit designs using our design ideas that work very well, such as multiple isolated regulated power supplies.  Even the Dyna St-70 required a new board that "overlapped" the size of the original by a considerable margin, no room for that on those other models.

Engineering:  The power bandwidth of the output transformers of the MKIII and MKII just won't support full power flat response in the audio range, too inductive at high frequencies, too small at low frequencies, so new circuits won't cure the worst case problem - - - the output transformers.  In addition the high voltage parts needed are scarce and very expensive, not good candidates.

Regarding the SCA-35, a really bad starting place.  The output tubes run at egg cooking temps, the preamp section is a joke (inadequate open loop gain with single triodes for each section), the passive tone control network would be better named a distortion generator network, the high level of circuit hum is simply masked by injecting raw hum directly into the outputs out of phase.  Its only virtue is that the midrange is not awful sounding, and the very limited bandwidth masks lots of other nasties.  It was adequate in its day nearly 50 years ago, but no way is it a high fidelity product by today's standards. Trying to redesign that unit from the ground up would cost much more than simply buying our already available separates, and the power rating would still be tiny.

Finally, we are not "modifying" equipment in the sense of taking out the bad sounding parts and putting in good sounding parts and wires as seems to be the norm.  Each old Dyna and Hafler unit that we do support is gutted and the audio design is simply replaced with ours from the ground up, essentially all new designs in your old box.  Hardly a modification.

Frank Van Alstine

P.S.  Our message is NOT that we are unable to fit a preamp and amp in the same chassis.  Of course we can do that!  The issue is whether it can be done cost effectively and supply a unit up to our musical and engineering standards with adequate power at a rational price. No point in it if you cannot afford it.

plaf26

Re: New integrated amp idea
« Reply #2 on: 27 Aug 2006, 02:08 am »
Aha, so that's what those "hum balance" controls were for on the back of the SCA-35 kit I built back in '72.  Local shop (now long defunct) had a brand new one still in the box in the basement storeroom.  Frank's right about the heat.  I can't remember other tube gear of the era running that hot, or tubes that glowed that blue or made a faint but noticeable mechanical ringing sound even when there was no music playing.  If memory serves me right, I think the perforated metal cover even used to sag and vibrate at 60 Hz until you tapped it a couple of times.  Years later I picked up a grungy looking, used EICO HF81 with a broken (permanently on) power switch that sounded much better.  But it sure looked cool in the magazine ads next to an AR turntable on a specially built wall mount shelf!

rustneversleeps

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Re: New integrated amp idea
« Reply #3 on: 27 Aug 2006, 02:32 am »
Frank's right about the numbers of the SCA-35 may not be as great as the ST-70.

I do think most amps that ultilize the 6BQ5 tubes do run hot in that era, I have several of them and I run them with the covers off, including my SCA-35.

Frank has high standard for the product that he builds, so it may not be worth his effort to design an integrated amp base on the SCA-35.

But think about it, most people  like myself who are into vintage audio are not looking for the perfect high fidelity, they are more into the nostalgic aspect of the equipment. The SCA-35 uses the same transformers as the ST-35, which is being displayed at the Smithsonian along side with the AR-1 speaker. Do you think the people who are after the AR-1 really think that the AR-1 sound better than the AVA modified B&W 801? Of course not, they are after the historical value of it.

Frank use to improve a lot of Dyna stuff, PAT-4, PAT-5, FM-5, I'd like to see he keep that going, after all, I do believe Dyna is what brings us to Frank.

Listens2tubes

Re: New integrated amp idea
« Reply #4 on: 27 Aug 2006, 03:45 am »
Still some Mk.IV power supply mods would be neat. :wink:

avahifi

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Re: New integrated amp idea
« Reply #5 on: 27 Aug 2006, 01:20 pm »
OK, here are the design "rules".

Rule 1: The bandwidth of the power supply must be greater than the bandwidth of the audio circuit, or else the audio circuit will run out of power supply at some frequencies.

Rule 2: The bandwidth of the audio circuits must be greater than the bandwidth you let the audio circuit see, or else the audio circuit will be driven to high distortion at some frequencies.

Obviously with DC coupled inputs, such as in the stock Dyna tube amplifiers, and many, many others, Rule 2 is violated and thus power supply improvements alone will be essentially useless.

Note that you cannot rationally make an audio circuit that is linear from DC to light, it will run out of linearity as it approaches DC and at some high frequency.  You cannot make a rational power supply with that bandwidth either.  A capacitor, no matter how big, is an open circuit by definition at DC, and at some high frequency too.

Thus a DC coupled input audio circuit will violate both Rules 1 and 2, and will be a distortion generator at its frequency extremes, no matter how big the power supply or wide band the audio design.

Thus to actually improve an audio circuit, look first at the worst case problems, (generally never the actual parts quality or power cord, or wire quality unless the design was hopeless in the first place), and fix the worst case problems first.

Frank Van Alstine