looking for a replacement for Rogers LS3/A

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #20 on:** 18 Aug 2006, 05:25 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 18 Aug 2006, 10:33 am

I like Louis and his Omega speakers, but a 4 inch driver isn't going to fill a big room, you'd have to move up to one of his 8 inch driver offerings (they're also more efficient).

I don't think this is necessarily true. The LS3/5As are no more than 81 dB efficient. The 4s are 93 and the 8s are 96. I think the gain of 12 dB will be very welcome - given that we don't know if an amp upgrade is in the works.

The thing about the smaller Omegas is that quality that caused that blind master piano restorer & tuner to buy a pair almost immediately on first hearing them. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/omega2/super3.html
(2nd paragraph)

I have owned a pair of Harbeth HLP3s for 12 years. They are basically a slightly refined version of the LS3/5A, without the BBC dip. They are very nice in the same way that the LS3/5As are, but after all this time I would welcome a little more "life" of the kind that low order or no-crossover designs seem to bring to the table.

I am attempting to put myself in Michael's father's shoes, since I gather I am around his age and share his tastes in music.

A change is as good as a rest, they say.

mizzuno · « **Reply #21 on:** 18 Aug 2006, 06:06 pm »

JLM,

The system is really not for HT, it will be a 2 channel environment for the time being. Again, I am attempting to fill a room that the LS3/5A really cannot handle especially considering their inefficiency. I guess what I am really wondering is, what makes the LS3/5A so special?

Michael

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #22 on:** 18 Aug 2006, 06:27 pm »

Quote from: mizzuno on 18 Aug 2006, 06:06 pm

JLM,

I guess what I am really wondering is, what makes the LS3/5A so special?

Michael

They were designed as near field monitors for recording trucks on location recording assignments by the BBC. They have an accurate midrange and were accurately pair matched so they imaged well and could be depended on for monitoring broadcasts.

The net result was a speaker that became popular for home use by those who were happy to exchange listening at realistic levels for accurate tonality and were willing to do without deep bass and all the room integration challenges that implies.

If voice and acoustic music is big for you, you really need that last little bit of tonal accuracy. For popular music, some would think you don't.

The thing is, at $1500 a pair compromises of some kind have to be made, broadly between loudness and accuracy.

For a big room, the design is not being used to advantage. It was designed for small spaces. In larger rooms a problem crops up - the efficiency is low, so it needs lots of power to wake up, yet it can only handle 50 W of "program power". What this leads to is a very restricted dynamic range. I cannot reach realistic orchestral levels with my Harbeths at 3 feet (nearfield) without them sounding forced. They are just not meant for a big room.

mizzuno · « **Reply #23 on:** 18 Aug 2006, 07:07 pm »

Russell,

I think i may have revised my budget up to $2k, a 500 dollar increase seems to bring a bit more to the table. Since this speaker is not for me (its for my father), i think the speaker should be geared towards classical and opera, in which case tonal accuracy is more important.

Michael

Al Garay · « **Reply #24 on:** 18 Aug 2006, 07:39 pm »

You are basically describing the requirements the Ellis 1801 targets. You would do well with any of Dennis Murphy's designs. The 1801 being the closest especially for your initial budget. http://www.ellisaudio.com/

Unfortunately, Jim Salk's HT2 is above your budget. Not familiar with ACI's speakers but they use Scanspeak woofers which would also add more warmth. Rick Craig has a special 2-way he did using Scanspeak Revelator woofer which would also work.

Wolfman · « **Reply #25 on:** 18 Aug 2006, 10:15 pm »

Michael,
Just noticed there's what appears to be a nice pair of Odyssey Loreleis at Audiogon in light Cherry. Not sure of where you stand on buying used,of course. I haven't heard them,but the owners on the Odyssey Circle speak very highly of them. Larger floor standing 2 way with all Scanspeak,apparently image very well and the Bass will surprise you.
Good luck,there's only 2 or 3 dozen models to consider so far.

-Richard- · « **Reply #26 on:** 19 Aug 2006, 09:30 pm »

Hi Mizzuno ~

The perfection of the BBC sound can be found in Harbeth speakers ~

They use a poly-amalgam material and unique process in molding it for their mid/bass
driver and a simple metal tweeter for their 7ES-2 2-way version of the classic
BBC approach... their cabinets breath like musical instruments... unquestionable the
most open, airy, spatial sound of the BBC speakers... naturally warm and detailed ~

I would not hesitate to purchase this speaker in a minute if I was not so deeply
into Open Baffle exploration at this time ~

Buy it used and your father will kiss the ground you walk on ~

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/hifispeakers/compact7es2/index.php

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

Onlythat · « **Reply #27 on:** 20 Aug 2006, 05:29 pm »

I have owned the Harbeths (7's) and think they'd be a wonderful option-- but I must champion too the Proac line.

You dont hear much these days about them as, like JPS Labs cables, they are no longer the newest thing-- but some of the small Proacs are more efficient/have easier impedences than the Rogers, a bit more sparkle and dynamic snap than the Spendor line, and the requisite simply superb midrange without the BBC dip. Gourgeous wood veneers, also.

I own a pair of floorstanding Response 1.5's and have for some while, but I cant imagine you'd go wrong with the British press darling Studio 110's-- the new 'budget' standmount from them.

Or, perhaps Audiogon.com can provide you with a pair of used Response 1SC's. These little guys require a bit of set-up accuracy, but have a stunningly realistic midrange and an un-hyped presentation sure to satisy a Rogers lover-- especially with say, Leak tube amp or a Quad or Prima Luna or some such thing.

You could also go with Tablet 50 signatures or some other such small Proac.

Another model I'd like you to investigate would be the JM Reynaud Twin Signature. http://jm-reynaud.com/jmr_us/twin.html

I used to own the older model and that midrange is positively sick in the right system. And they are so easy to drive and perhaps easier to set up than the Proacs. Bob at AmherstAudio.com is a dealer and I'm sure he could help you out-- might even give you a 'trial' period.

These are maybe a touch less punchy/snappy than the Proacs, but simply magical in all other ways that matter.

My three cents for what it's worth!

David

Frihed91 · « **Reply #28 on:** 20 Aug 2006, 05:39 pm »

The JMR twins are not "accurate" speakers like the Harbeths, Stirling and Spendor models. Talk with the US JMR distributor, Bob Neil, at www.amherstaudio.com He loves the Twins, but not because they are "realistic".

Onlythat · « **Reply #29 on:** 20 Aug 2006, 05:59 pm »

I see your point, but if you've seen the LS35a frequency response curve, you might be persuaded that those famed speakers arent the bee's knees accuracy-wise either.

I dont want to hijack this thread and ride her into the realms of accuracy-in-speakers debates, but I think the JMR's are very much in the BBC model-- gourgeous, less than perfectly accurate sonics but 'who earthly cares cause it's so damn musical!?' At least that was my take on the Twins-- and on the Rogers.

If you want accuracy in terms of measurements-- I recall John Dulavy was all about that-- flat response, perfect step response etc. I liked his work as well.

But I think the ProAcs, JMR's and Rogers all have their own notions of reality-- perhaps the ProAcs are the more 'neutral' of the bunch to my ears. But no-- I wouldnt call either the LS3/5a's or the JMR's 'middle of the road' neutral or super 'accurate'-- just super musical.

David

mizzuno · « **Reply #30 on:** 22 Aug 2006, 05:40 pm »

So I auditioned a pair of Fried Monitor 7's and Fried Studio 7's. Looks like the Studios are the ticket...I'd like to extend my thanks to everyone who proffered suggestions, my father should be a happy man come this weekend...

Michael

Al Garay · « **Reply #31 on:** 22 Aug 2006, 10:46 pm »

Congratulations. Can you provide more information about the Fried Studio 7?
http://www.friedproducts.com/studio7.html

What did you like? Did you stay within your budget? Did you hear the Fried Reference?

WEEZ · « **Reply #32 on:** 22 Aug 2006, 10:56 pm »

Hell yeah, congratulations!

What a far cry from replacing a small monitor with a full range floorstander

Kinda wish I could be your new adopted 'dad'.

WEEZ

mizzuno · « **Reply #33 on:** 23 Aug 2006, 01:37 am »

Quote from: WEEZ on 22 Aug 2006, 10:56 pm

Hell yeah, congratulations!

What a far cry from replacing a small monitor with a full range floorstander

Kinda wish I could be your new adopted 'dad'.

WEEZ

Yeah I decided that a compact monitor was just too small for the room, they were originally used in a substantially smaller room. The room dimensions now are 18x13x24, no small volume. So i think he'll be happy with the upgrade

. Besides he used to tell me how he liked the transmission line speakers he had heard in years past, I did a bit of research and came up with a floorstander that meets most if not all of my criteria, the price was more than I wanted to spend but I think the choice was a well informed one.

MIZZ

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #34 on:** 23 Aug 2006, 03:50 am »

In 1976 I built a set of Fried Model H speakers, with the LS3/5A - like satellites and the huge coffee table T/L sub with something like a KEF B200 in each end. This was definitely the best sounding transmission line bass I have heard before or since.

Irving Fried sure knew his stuff. I generally didn't like the bass in most speakers I heard then or now, but I liked bass in almost all the Frieds and Snells I heard. For his cheaper models, he used to go with "resistive ports", like the Dynaco A-25.

I still don't trust most transmission lines, but I'll bet the bass on those Studio 7s is great.

You never did say what your father has for an amp.

You should keep us informed of his reaction.

mizzuno · « **Reply #35 on:** 23 Aug 2006, 02:29 pm »

Russell,

I actually need a good amp for them, I was thinking of an analog switching amp like a bel canto or equivalent, suggestions for an amp would be welcome though

Michael

Al Garay · « **Reply #36 on:** 23 Aug 2006, 05:03 pm »

Some old classics that can drive 4 ohm loads
* Audio by VanAlstine, http://www.avahifi.com/
* McIntosh
* Audio Research

JLM · « **Reply #37 on:** 23 Aug 2006, 08:47 pm »

Michael,

Check out the Red Dragon and Ric Shultz offerings in the marketplace circle above. For $600 - 800 you can have about 200 wpc at 4 ohms from these affordable digital offerings. Both these guys are from around here (A/C) and good guys trying to run small internet based shops.

Russell,

In 1980 I built similar Fried Model M's (separate cabinets designed to allow the matching Model B (similar to the LS3/A) to sit directly on top to allow for better monitoring. The bass was wonderful, but overwhelmed any sized space I could afford. They sounded so good in a 20,000 cu. ft. chapel with a 20 wpc NAD receiver that I donated them on the spot. I still own Frieds and separate mass loaded transmission lines.

Curious, is it the amount of deep, musical, dynamic bass that "scares" you?

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #38 on:** 24 Aug 2006, 04:49 am »

Quote from: JLM on 23 Aug 2006, 08:47 pm

Curious, is it the amount of deep, musical, dynamic bass that "scares" you?

Could you elaborate, JLM? Sorry, I don't understand the reference.

Frihed91 · « **Reply #39 on:** 24 Aug 2006, 08:30 am »

They certainly look nice. They have: "I sound good, too" written all over them. But I have never even heard of these. I like the looks of the 2-way floor standing "monitor", too. I checked out the weight! They'll never get these in Denmark, but we have access to all the UK and Euro-speakers of note. With the likes of Harbeth, Spendor, Proac, Quad, JMR, Tannoy...we aren't exactly hurting over hear.

A`really nice gift for a dad.

I hope he likes them