5751's in CornetII??

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robertwstephens

5751's in CornetII??
« on: 6 Aug 2006, 07:17 pm »
Does anyone have any feedback on putting 5751's in place of the 12AX7's on their Cornet(II) phono stage?  I know the gain is lower.  I have some JJ 12AX7's and am looking to experiment/upgrade.  Peace.  Robert
« Last Edit: 6 Aug 2006, 09:49 pm by robertwstephens »

GRD

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Re: 5751's in CornetII??
« Reply #1 on: 6 Aug 2006, 07:44 pm »
I tried a 5751.  I really didn't notice much of a drop in gain, but the equilzation changes a bit.  I thought it sounded a bit brighter with less bass.  The Cornet relies on the internal resistance of the AX7's for the RIAA equilization and the 5751 has a slightly different resistance.  So the equilazation will shift a bit.  I think there was a previous post by Jim that talks about 5751's.

amandarae

Re: 5751's in CornetII??
« Reply #2 on: 6 Aug 2006, 07:50 pm »
I have some experienced.  I tried Sylvania 3 mica, RCA 3 mica, GE 5 Star 3 mica, and Raytheon 2 mica all have black plates.  My conclusion is that if you are using a cartridge which is 0.8mV or lower in output (MC), I tried the Shelter 901 and Denon 103R, the gain is not sufficient to have a flat response on the mid range even if you have a step up tranny(I am using Tribute wired at 10X).

However, for a 0.8 mV output (Benz ACE M), with a step up tranny, it sounds great and it is probably safe to assume that it will work with other cartridges higher in output than 0.8 mV.

Difference? Less tube rush at higher volume for sure but sonics wise, I prefer the Sovtek 12AXLPS or Tungsol 12AX7 with either Amperex BB large ring getter 12AU7 or RCA Blackplate 5814 square getter.  Here are some combo that I found(from being a new owner of the Cornet 2) that works with my system....

Tungsram 12AX and Telefunken Smooth plate 12AU
Mullard 12AX and GE 6189
Amperex BB 12AX and Amperex BB 12AU or RCA 12AU
Matsushita 12AX and RCA 5814
Sovtek 12AXLPS and EI 12AU

Ahhhh, pretty confusing isn't it?  IMHO, the Cornet 2 is great sounding with any tubes but with the right tubes, it's magical!  If you do not have a stable of cartridges of different output range or preferably MM, I would say stick with the 12AX7's or else you will be stumbling to rewire your step up for a higher gain.

My own conclusion?  The 5751 works better on MM cartridges and higher output MC cartridges than the 12AX7's on the Cornet 2 in my system.



As what GRD said above, the RIAA equalization of the preamp is directly affected by the rp of the tube.  Hence for a 12AX7 whose rp is from 62500 to 80000 ohms and for a 5751 whose rp is around 58000, there will be a swing because of the discrepancies.   Hmmmm.....that should be the reason why I thought the gain on the mid using 5751 is not sufficient for getting a flat response.

Pardon me Robert, but I have a question for Jim and others.

Question: looking at the schematic of the Cornet 2, the RIAA is R204,R205 C202, C203, R207 isn't it?  Is it safe to assume that R208 in Series with the 2nd 12AX7 Rp is the one tilting the balance of the RIAA if 5751 replaces the 2nd 12AX7? If that is the case, the 2nd 12AX7 position can be "rolled" to tailor the RIAA response more effectively than the first 12AX7?  Or I am getting this all wrong :lol: :lol: :lol:
« Last Edit: 6 Aug 2006, 09:18 pm by amandarae »

hagtech

Re: 5751's in CornetII??
« Reply #3 on: 7 Aug 2006, 05:01 am »
Quote
schematic of the Cornet 2, the RIAA is R204,R205 C202, C203, R207 isn't it?

Yeah, pretty much every single part affects equalization.  Except the 220 ohm grid resistors.  Otherwise, everything.  It's all in critically tuned balance.  The Cornet is indeed more sensitive to tube changes than other phono designs.  I did this on purpose.  Not because I wanted the sensitivity issue, no, but for the sake of sonics.

I forget, but the rp on a 12AX7 goes up to about 100k when the cathode sees a non-zero impedance (the 910 ohms).  With a cathode bypass cap, gain goes up and rp comes down.  So in a way, things are self balancing.  With nominal tubes, the EQ is spot on.  As they age you will notice a tilt, with bass boosted and treble cut.  Not really a bad thing, just a change.

The 5751 will be different.  Will you like it?  I dunno.  But ponder this:  Tube rolling should not be considered a fruitless and agonizing exercise, but rather a journey on your path to audio nirvana.  It is possible to learn to enjoy the effort as it teaches as well as rewards.  Audio can be fun again.  Our very own amandarae is proof.

jh :)

amandarae

Re: 5751's in CornetII??
« Reply #4 on: 7 Aug 2006, 05:26 am »
Thanks for the explanation Jim!