[J]

[
[/quote]

The PR system of the VMPS speakers is affected by gravity, mass, and the impedance/pressurization of the slot. when it is enclosed by the plate or by sitting on the floor.

Each of these elements serves to "control" the performance of the PR.

Placing the Sub on its side reduces the effect of gravity slightly, so you would need to "add" mass (putty).

If you also remove the "slot plate" (Large flat plate that encloses the slot) then the pressurization of that chamber is reduced and a small amount of putty should be added.
[/quote]


Small amount = ? 

Thanks
John

[John Casler]

The PR system of the VMPS speakers is affected by gravity, mass, and the impedance/pressurization of the slot. when it is enclosed by the plate or by sitting on the floor.

Each of these elements serves to "control" the performance of the PR.

Placing the Sub on its side reduces the effect of gravity slightly, so you would need to "add" mass (putty).

If you also remove the "slot plate" (Large flat plate that encloses the slot) then the pressurization of that chamber is reduced and a small amount of putty should be added.


Small amount = ? 

Thanks
John

Hi John,

I found that when I turned them on their sides and removed that plate that I needed to add back the eqivalent of two marbles (two well chewed sticks of gum rolled in a ball)

If I left the plate in place, I used a single marble's worth, since the pressure/impedance of the enclosed slot reduced the need for additional damping mass.

I now run my front LARGERs mounted on stands that places them almost 5 feet high with the PR's firing up, and the active drivers firing forward.

I have the base plate sitting on top, but I have concocted a slot that fires out each side, but not forward or backwards.

It seems that the "deep" bass is now more present and detailed.

That height has them firing in the "middle" of the 9 foot room height and changes some of the room modes.

The rear pair of LARGERs still sit on the floor right behind the listening chair and fire "away" from the listener to achive maximum air movement at the listening position.

Gotta love playing with these things.

[J]

Thanks John!

4 largers

[Eugene2]

With the powered sub, it only allows for the speakers to play full range, I have the xover at approx. 50-60 hz.  Is this the best option and how do you use the three pot eq?

[ka7niq]

This has been a great thread so far!
I am an RM 40 w/TRT's owner, and I purchased my speakers used.
How do I KNOW if I have all the putty that came with mine ?
There needs to be a specific weight of Putty to "get you in the ballpark"
I agree with the previous poster, Brian says 6 inches, now someone say 4 ??
I think Brian should just come out and say "I use 35 grams of mortite to start with" rather then 6 inches.
Mortite can stratch, and 4 inches can easily turn into 5 or even 6!
Why not go by weight ?

Then, to confuse things even more, John says to tune for best bass ?
But I think I remember Brian saying the passive tuning on an RM 40 effects the midrange ?

[zybar]

This has been a great thread so far!
I am an RM 40 w/TRT's owner, and I purchased my speakers used.
How do I KNOW if I have all the putty that came with mine ?
There needs to be a specific weight of Putty to "get you in the ballpark"
I agree with the previous poster, Brian says 6 inches, now someone say 4 ??
I think Brian should just come out and say "I use 35 grams of mortite to start with" rather then 6 inches.
Mortite can stratch, and 4 inches can easily turn into 5 or even 6!
Why not go by weight ?

Then, to confuse things even more, John says to tune for best bass ?
But I think I remember Brian saying the passive tuning on an RM 40 effects the midrange ?

Welcome to the world of putty and pots!   

George

[soundguy3]

Hmmmmm....putty is one thing, but what kind of "pots" are we talking about......

[warnerwh]

I could have sworn it had been 8" of putty on the RM 40's  

Chris: Your midrange is definitely affected by the putty but this putty thing isn't nearly as difficult as it appears. I think most people make it way more complex than necessary. Please remember you can only do so much with the damping of the box, although it does make a significant effect on the sound. The rest is room/recording related. I strongly advise bass traps at a minimum. Any speaker that puts out honest bass below 50hz needs them.

These things need to be worked on as a "system" so to speak. Even an overstuffed chair if you can't have large bass traps can help. 

Yes, Brian should tell us an exact weight of putty. The you need a very accurate scale that's accurate to .1 grams at minimum. A grain scale people use for reloading will also work. I'd like to say it's not that difficult to tell if you're ballpark or not but after having three sets of Brian's speakers since 1996 I'm probably more used to it than most people.

[John Casler]

This has been a great thread so far!

Then, to confuse things even more, John says to tune for best bass ?
But I think I remember Brian saying the passive tuning on an RM 40 effects the midrange ?

Hi Chris,

First let me clarify.  The tuning of the putty "does not" change anything to do with the neopanels response.

What it does, is change your "perception" of the full spectrum of frequencies and their relationship to each other.

That said, the woofers also "do" produce (although at a rolled off level) higher frequencies, that when produced with greater clarity, will make for a richer, cleaner, and more natural sounding MR.

While some would rather buy and sell cables, and or other components to achieve specific response balances from their speakers, it is more fun to others to explore the sonic adjustments of "tweaking" the pots and putty.

I like the speaker adjustment route, since many times it is less expensive, and since the speaker is the "final" link in the chain, it can offer the greatest "tuning" tool, if one already has a high quality and neutral set of components feeding them.

When you are "stuck" with a speaker that can't be "tuned", your only option is to make more costly adjustments ahead of it.

That said, you can't turn a "pig's ear, into a silk purse" either.  But you (with a little "tweak'n and listening") can achieve a better or more personally pleasing sound, than not having the ability to adjust at the speaker level.

[fredgarvin]

Personally I found it very easy to set mine up, I removed about a pea sized amount of putty and -voila- great bass! I suspect that 'audiophilia nervosa' accounts for much of the putty twiddling that ensues for many folks. The pots are an option other speaker co.'s really should consider. Revel and a couple others utilize a tweeter adjustment but many have been the speakers I have heard that could have gone from mediocre to excellent with a simple turn of a knob. Much easier than trying assorted cables to get a relatively minimal effect.

[skylane799]

I think that VMPS's provision for adjusting for optimal woofer damping in the field is brilliant. It's a lot better than a one size fits all product compromize.

Folks without "years and years" of "pinching putty" experience need a way to proceed without fear of getting sideways. Removing putty isn't so tough as long as the one's housekeeper does'nt vacuum up the minute little pieces you line up carefuly in the slot opening like happened to at least one Circle contributor!

Lets see....I changed my wires.....amp...my bass is woolly...this is be because I have too much...but wait a minute, too little putty will sound shi**y too!

I only way that I can think of for an newbie owner to approach adding putty without the potential and worse yet the fear of getting lost is to purchace one of those RCBS gun powder scales and weigh every added "pinch" so he can always get back to where he was with certainty. A little Spam on the weighing cup might be a good plan. This sticky stuff is hard enoughg to dig out of your fingernails when you're goin' for that micro tweak....pinchers are warned to not over do it.

It would be nice would be for VMPS or Circle members to pick a cut on some CD that new RM owners could purchase that is particulairly revealing of improper damping. Then carefully describe the subjective differences one hears on that cut with under, over, and just right installations. This would help newbies overcome their hesitance and insecurity by encouraging them to find their way, by example, listening and gaining the ability to identify boths ends of wrong and which direction to head to get it right. With carefull pinch accounting hopefully I guy should be able to bracket the extremes with repeatability and zoom in on the tweak, no sweat?     

Armed with Mortite strings of the appropriate length (better yet a weight) if you know you're "lost",  flip 'em over, take off the base (Oh Christ no!! I've got 370# RMXs) dig the drivers clean and start from scratch. I don't ever want to think I need to go there!     
   

[timr]

RM30 Putty method.

I read ka7niq's previous post about vocals and quarters and tried that.

First, these have been running in for months while new (to me) electronics and other setup games were settled.  The adjustably of these speakers is one of the main attractions for me.  They sit in an L shaped Living Room / TV Land / Wannabe Hi-End Stereo.  The Left and Right sides have different acoustic homes.  They also sit on a plush carpet and thick pad on concrete (see Living Room).  The plush carpet lends the room a generous touch of warmth, not in the audio way but in the cold New England winter way.

One of the setup games I needed to settle was the carpet and pad.  The RM30's were, at first placed as advised, directly on the carpet.  I could feel the carpet vibrate with the music through my feet.  They now float just above the carpet spiked to the concrete on three one inch (adjustable) spikes.  Not raised.  You can't see they are spiked at all.  Bass is deeper and tighter.  No foot massages though.

Then my wife and I applied the ka7niq quarter method to putty adjustment.  This strikes me as very useful, especially for two speakers in different environments.  By adding a quarter to the putty it while my wife listened to Lucinda Williams, it was easy to pick the more mass/less mass is better for each speaker.  We wound up removing a pea from the open side and putting it on the cornered side.  No stressing over weather we removed too much.  OH NO!  Both speakers moved towards each other in nature.  After some ear time we'll try again.

Unlike ka7niq I did not take note the vintage of the quarter we used.  Note:  New England = Yankee = Cheap.  The quarter is back in my pocket with the rest of my change.

[ka7niq]

Gotta be careful ?
Different quarters sound 'different'

The KEY here is in looking at WHO is on the quarter, and if he was a Democrat, or a Republican ?
If he was a Democrat, he is probably a left winger, and should ONLY be placed on the Left speaker.

But, you must ALSO check to see if he was ever "Speaker of the House" ?
If he was, he can work equally well on either side, UNLESS it is a "Foley Quarter"

"Democratic Quarters" as a rule seem to "distribute" the bass through the room better. 


Quarters with Republicans on them seem to be more "stingy",and have tighter, almost too controlled bass, and then only for the chosen few.

Be CAREFUL when using Republican Quarters, and always place their faces up into the putty, where they can't look at, or send emails to your young male children 

The REAL trick in the "Ka7niq Quarter Method" is to use a severely tarnished quarter to SLIGHTLY overdamp the passive radiator.
Just like old paper in oil capacitors, older quarters sound better!

A REAL audiophile will search high and low for a "matched pair" of SEVERELY tarnished quarters.
These can be found by taking apart old washers/dryers, or simply by visiting yard and estate sales, and covertly sticking your hand down old sofa and chair cushions.

Once you have found your old tarnished pair of quarters, here is what you do!

Use JUST enough old putty to stick the quarters on your passives, creating a SLIGHTLY overdamped tuning condition.

Then, the heck with Brians suggestion of removing a 1/2 fingernail of putty at a time.
THAT method assumes we still HAVE fingernails, LOL

The "Ka7niq method" does not make that assumption.

I suggest that once you have the tarnished quarters installed, and tuned for a SLIGHT overdamped condition you do this.

Simply take some TarnX, and dip a toothpick in it.
Then, just slightly touch the wet toothpick tip to the tarnished quarter, removing just a SPECK of tarnish at a time!

Be careful not to get too carried away with the TarnX. 
If you do, simply pull the quarter/putty off the passive, and add just a speck of putty to compensate. aa

[fredgarvin]

What are you "compensating" for?

[ka7niq]

What are you "compensating" for?

The Savoy Truffle, LOL

Think about it Freddy, when you use those rare, old,  Tarnished Quarters, the amount of the tarnish has an effect on the sound, just like specs of putty.

Now, when you dip the end of a toothpick ito the TarnX, and gently touch the tarnished old Quarter with the TarnX solvent, you are REMOVING mass from the passive radiator.

IF you get carried away by removing too much tarnish, you can't put the removed
tarnish back, unless you have about 50 tears to wait.

Not to worry!

You simply compensate for the removed mass by adding a spec of putty to the putty holding the quarter to the passive in the first place 

[PLMONROE]

This is really getting putty deep!

[ka7niq]

This is really getting putty deep!

Hey, we are just having some fun, putty funny, huh ?

[PLMONROE]

"Hey, we are just having some fun, putty funny, huh ?"


 A) Me too
 B) Putty much
 C) 

[ka7niq]

"Hey, we are just having some fun, putty funny, huh ?"


 A) Me too
 B) Putty much
 C) 

The whole point of this, in a funny way, is that even a SPEC of putty can change the sound of your speakers.
I must admit, until I heard it for myself, I was skeptical.

[timr]

Quote from ka7niq

"Then, the heck with Brians suggestion of removing a 1/2 fingernail of putty at a time.
THAT method assumes we still HAVE fingernails, LOL

The "Ka7niq method" does not make that assumption. "

I need to make sure my wife isn't standing behind me.   OK, the coast is clear.  I asked her to sit and use her superior female hearing to help tune in the passive radiators.  All I really needed was her fingernails.