[zybar]

Barry,

With all your room treatments you can get a little closer to the side walls.

Start out with the speakers 12-18" away from the side wall (measured at the center of the speaker) and slowly work your way in/out if you think that is necessary.  Also, don't use too much toe-in.

Let us know how things work out.

George

[WEEZ]

I wouldn't worry if the speakers seem too close together...you might even like the imaging better that way.

WEEZ

[spectralman]

As far as the original topic is concerned, the answer is an unequivocal YES: Atmasphere.  I have not heard another amp, be it SS or tube, that can match the transparency of the MA2 Mk2.3 monoblocks I currently run.  I have recently tried quite a few highly rated SS amps, including a DNA-500, Pass X350.5, Belles Ref 350A, and Clayton M100 monoblocks recently in hopes of finding a less costly alternative to the AS amps (in terms of electrical consumption, tube replacement, and financial outlay).  No dice.  They are all gone, the AS amps are still here.  BTW, they have great bass response as well.

Bill

[earlmarc]

As far as the original topic is concerned, the answer is an unequivocal YES: Atmasphere.  I have not heard another amp, be it SS or tube, that can match the transparency of the MA2 Mk2.3 monoblocks I currently run.  I have recently tried quite a few highly rated SS amps, including a DNA-500, Pass X350.5, Belles Ref 350A, and Clayton M100 monoblocks recently in hopes of finding a less costly alternative to the AS amps (in terms of electrical consumption, tube replacement, and financial outlay).  No dice.  They are all gone, the AS amps are still here.  BTW, they have great bass response as well.

Bill

Hey Bill, how's everything coming together with conditioner, cords, and all that DYI bass traps?

[95bcwh]

As far as the original topic is concerned, the answer is an unequivocal YES: Atmasphere.  I have not heard another amp, be it SS or tube, that can match the transparency of the MA2 Mk2.3 monoblocks I currently run.  I have recently tried quite a few highly rated SS amps, including a DNA-500, Pass X350.5, Belles Ref 350A, and Clayton M100 monoblocks recently in hopes of finding a less costly alternative to the AS amps (in terms of electrical consumption, tube replacement, and financial outlay).  No dice.  They are all gone, the AS amps are still here.  BTW, they have great bass response as well.

Bill

At a price of $33,000, it had better be..!

Oh by the way, Bill, can you describe the difference between McCormack DNA 500 and Belles Ref 350A? These are the two amps that are currently on my future upgrade list.

Thanks
barry

[Dan Banquer]

"Everyone I know with a tube amp has replaced AT LEAST 1 tube/year that I know.  NOS tubes just go bad.  Sure, on paper, and in theory a new tube, made to the proper spec should last a few years.... but I just don't know anyone that hasn't had to replace them sooner for various reasons.

Oh, and don't forget the matching/balancing and biasing...  I couldn't agree more with JLM's comments about tubes.  I liken tubes to record players but worse because it's a little harder to figure out where the problem started.

I think a tubed record player would turn me away from audio entirely. "

I have started to re- cap two pair of LNPA 150's  that I have in the living room and my lab. They are approaching  15 years old and the electrolytic caps are starting to show it. They are also still meeting spec as far as I can tell. In addition, as far as I know, no one has found transistors to deteriorate over time.
See you in 15 years if I am able to write a post like this again.
             d.b.
P.S. The cost to replace all the electrolytic caps is about 150.00 for one pair of amps including shipping. Sprague 36 DE series for the big cans in the power supply and Sprague 517D series on the boards.

[BobRex]

[/quote]

Everyone I know with a tube amp has replaced AT LEAST 1 tube/year that I know.  NOS tubes just go bad.  Sure, on paper, and in theory a new tube, made to the proper spec should last a few years.... but I just don't know anyone that hasn't had to replace them sooner for various reasons.

Oh, and don't forget the matching/balancing and biasing...  I couldn't agree more with JLM's comments about tubes.  I liken tubes to record players but worse because it's a little harder to figure out where the problem started.

I think a tubed record player would turn me away from audio entirely.  

All that said, I have heard some transparent tube amps that had that liquid midrange... Rogue M150's.  I think they're a little out of your range used but not by much.  

-C
[/quote]

Sigh...  If everyone you know replaces at least one tube annually, then maybe you need to enlarge your circle of friends .  I've been running tubes exclusively for over 20 years (first a cj PV5 and MV75, now since 2000 a Joule Electra LA100, Herron VTP-MC, Welborne Moondogs) and I think I popped my first tube last night! - A KR 2A3, I'm going to verify it tonight after golf.  That doesn't mean I didn't play rolling games or replace complete tube sets out of neurosis (but I'm better now!), but except for last night, I've NEVER had a tube die on me.  So either I'm lucky or some people just don't design well with tubes.

Oh, and except for the MV75, I don't/ can't bias on a whim, so no issues there.

Apparently you've never heard a good turntable through a tubed phono stage.  When done right, it can be magical.  Ironically, virtually every SS system I've ever heard has left me cold, that included offerings from Levinson and Rowland, so I guess it's just a preference thing.

Ands no, I haven't heard Dan's LNPAs.

[Carlman]

Apparently you've never heard a good turntable through a tubed phono stage.  When done right, it can be magical.

I have... and I fully appreciated the magic... but I was joking about a tubed turntable, not a tubed preamp.... You know, like ha, ha... as if... and how much a pain it would be.

BTW, nice jab with the 'need more friends' statement. ha.  Yes, I agree, when there's a bigger sample, the chances of finding anomolies will increase. 

[spectralman]

Hey Marcus,

I am in the process of putting up some Eighth Nerve products I purchased here on AC.  I'm not using any of the bass traps yet.  I will keep you updated.  The conditioner and PC's have made the system very enjoyable.

Barry,

The Belles Ref 350A may have been the most transparent SS amp I personally have heard.  However, with this transparency, there was a downside.  That was the loss of what audiojerry and I have called "harmonic structure".  It was just not emotionally involving like the AS gear, meaning it was too sterile.  All the notes were there, it had good macrodynamics, very tight bass response.  At first listen, there was alot of the "wow" factor that comes with a high-powered amp that cruises effortlessly along.  But extended listening pointed out its foibles.

The DNA-500, while sharing some of the same traits as the Belles amp, was more musically satisfying.  It had more fullness in the mids than the Belles, although nothing like the AS amps.  The DNA-500 had an absolutely effortless presentation with regard to power; nothing seemed to phase this amp or make it run out of juice (on my Confidence C2's).  It's highs were also not quite as dry as the Belles.  Overall, a little more lush, but not at all what I would call tubey.  The DNA-500, in my system, was actually a better performer than the Pass X350.5.  The Pass had what I can best describe as a siky sheen over everything.  I found this to be very distracting and something I could not tolerate.  Overall, the DNA-500 was a VERY good amp.

Now, for the past 3-4 days, it's been hotter than you know what in SE Wisconsin!!!  I haven't even turned the system on b/c it will just cause the A/C to have to work that much harder.  The AS amps throw off a TON of heat.  It's supposed to cool off tomorrow, so I will fire everything back up then.

Bill

[zybar]

Nice post Bill.

What you described with the various ss amps is pretty much exactly what I have heard as well.   

I will say that the BAT VK-600SE is in a different class than the other ss amps mentioned.  It would be much closer to the things you like about the Atma-Sphere products. 

If the Atma-Sphere amps weren't mini furnaces AND if my speakers weren't 85 db efficent, I would go back to them in a heartbeat.  I always enjoyed my time with M-60's I used to own.

If you can come across a used BAT VK-600SE I think it would be owrth your time and effort to audition.

George

[marvda1]

is there any difference in sound between the belles 350a reference and belles 150a reference?  a lot of times the lower powered amp will sound better.

[95bcwh]

Folks,
  You know what, the dealer that sell the JM-Lab speakers (See my first post on this thread) powered by all tube gears (multi-thousand Audio Research CDP, preamp and amp) came to listen to my Salk HT3 setup just now. He said my system was too transparent, too high resolution, has much sharper image and better soundstage, but it has no "soul". He could hear a lot more things on my speakers than his speakers, but he prefers not to hear so many things. He said my speakers cannot compete with the JM-Lab 1027Be and Tannoy T10 (which sound pretty "blurry" to me). 
   He said it takes time for people to appreciate "musical" sound that's typically associated with tube sound, the longer you are as an audiophile, the more likely you're going to change your taste to like less transparent sound. He said in the long run, I will find that tube sound much more enjoyable and listenable.

   Ok.. admittedly, I'm nowhere as "experience" as him, but what an interesting perspective that is.. ...




 

[EProvenzano]

Folks,
  You know what, the dealer that sell the JM-Lab speakers (See my first post on this thread) powered by all tube gears (multi-thousand Audio Research CDP, preamp and amp) came to listen to my Salk HT3 setup just now. He said my system was too transparent, too high resolution, has much sharper image and better soundstage, but it has no "soul". He could hear a lot more things on my speakers than his speakers, but he prefers not to hear so many things. He said my speakers cannot compete with the JM-Lab 1027Be and Tannoy T10 (which sound pretty "blurry" to me). 
   He said it takes time for people to appreciate "musical" sound that's typically associated with tube sound, the longer you are as an audiophile, the more likely you're going to change your taste to like less transparent sound. He said in the long run, I will find that tube sound much more enjoyable and listenable.

   Ok.. admittedly, I'm nowhere as "experience" as him, but what an interesting perspective that is.. ...

 

This has always been interesting to me.
IMO, many cutting edge speaker and electronics designs have far and away overshot the lowest common denominator...the recording!

I think until recordings, as a whole, begin to improve, most modern day hi-fidelity systems exceed the capacity of the media to deliver the detail, intimacy, emotion (or what ever turns you on) . I digress.
For most, as in the case of your dealer, high fidelity systems should be chosen to taste, not for their absolute performance.  YMMV.

Sorry to deviate off the topic a bit there.
EP

[95bcwh]

Sorry, my English wasn't that good just to clarify. Do you mean that the high fidelity systems these days make the recording sound much better than it was originally recorded? To be honest, I once sit in a recording studio before, and from listening to the actual sound of the instrument/vocal vs what came out of the recording played through a $30k system, the actual sound was certainly better, more real to me than the recording played through a high-fidelity system.

Maybe I'm too inexperience, but what's wrong with chosen speakers based on performance. At least I can then have a choice of whether I want to make the sound "blurry" or not by choosing the appropriate source/preamp/amp/ (or with the use of EQ).

I think until recordings, as a whole, begin to improve, most modern day hi-fidelity systems exceed the capacity of the media to deliver the detail, intimacy, emotion (or what ever turns you on) . I digress.
For most, as in the case of your dealer, high fidelity systems should be chosen to taste, not for their absolute performance.  YMMV.

[andyr]

Sorry, my English wasn't that good just to clarify. Do you mean that the high fidelity systems these days make the recording sound much better than it was originally recorded? To be honest, I once sit in a recording studio before, and from listening to the actual sound of the instrument/vocal vs what came out of the recording played through a $30k system, the actual sound was certainly better, more real to me than the recording played through a high-fidelity system.

Maybe I'm too inexperience, but what's wrong with chosen speakers based on performance. At least I can then have a choice of whether I want to make the sound "blurry" or not by choosing the appropriate source/preamp/amp/ (or with the use of EQ).

I think until recordings, as a whole, begin to improve, most modern day hi-fidelity systems exceed the capacity of the media to deliver the detail, intimacy, emotion (or what ever turns you on) . I digress.
For most, as in the case of your dealer, high fidelity systems should be chosen to taste, not for their absolute performance.  YMMV.

Hi you guys,

I think your dealer, 95bcwh, is "playing with your mind".  Yes, tubes can generally deliver more "emotion", "soul" or "connectedness-to-the-music" than many ss amps but they also generally don't deliver the same sharpness of bass transients that a good ss amp does.  I agree with your dealer that this tube "soul" is what one craves for, with experience, but it's a matter of your personal preferences.  A case in point ... a friend of mine also listens to vinyl and has the same amp and preamp that I do; he uses a tube head-amp (with his low-output MC cartridge) while I prefer the detail of my ss head-amp.

The preamp which we use, the AKSA "Swift" is a hybrid - it has a unity-gain tube output stage after the main ss amplifying section.  The output for subs bypasses the tube ... yes, you can use this as your normal feed (to your power amp) but, if you do, you lose a lot of interest and "soul".  So it sounds boring!

Conversely, if you feed subs from the tube output (rather than the pre-tube output), they lose a lot of bass impact.  IE. emotion is not so important in the bass - you want dynamic "snap"... and transient impact is not so important as "emotion" in the higher frequencies.

So, when you ask: "Do you mean that the high fidelity systems these days make the recording sound much better than it was originally recorded" ... no, the aim is to make it sound just as it was originally recorded but this is a very hard ask.  For a start, the recording engineer may not have done a very job in the recording process ... with the result that you've got a crap recording! 

And EP, I agree with you that the lowest common denominator is the recording.  But I don't agree that "most modern day hi-fidelity systems exceed the capacity of the media to deliver the detail, intimacy, emotion".  There are plenty of ss amps around which, because of their design topology, do not deliver any emotion at all!    And there are tube amps which do not deliver the detail which is on the recording.   

But there are good components which do these good things - you just have to keep listening to different stuff, to find them!   

Regards,

Andy

[zybar]

Folks,
  You know what, the dealer that sell the JM-Lab speakers (See my first post on this thread) powered by all tube gears (multi-thousand Audio Research CDP, preamp and amp) came to listen to my Salk HT3 setup just now. He said my system was too transparent, too high resolution, has much sharper image and better soundstage, but it has no "soul". He could hear a lot more things on my speakers than his speakers, but he prefers not to hear so many things. He said my speakers cannot compete with the JM-Lab 1027Be and Tannoy T10 (which sound pretty "blurry" to me). 
   He said it takes time for people to appreciate "musical" sound that's typically associated with tube sound, the longer you are as an audiophile, the more likely you're going to change your taste to like less transparent sound. He said in the long run, I will find that tube sound much more enjoyable and listenable.

   Ok.. admittedly, I'm nowhere as "experience" as him, but what an interesting perspective that is.. ...
 

While your dealer is entitled to his opinion and might have a different set of priorities or wants, he is somewhat full of it.

I have heard great and bad tube and ss amps.  Saying only tube amps can satisfy in the long run is just a silly statement.  Yet for some reason we tend to listen to a dealer or a poster and take their opinion as gospel.  If a car dealer told you that only four wheel drive will allow you to enjoy driving your car, that long term front or rear wheel drive won't cut it, what would you say to that?

He is right in that you might find your tastes changing over the years.  If that happens, simply adjust your system so that it continues to provide the enjoyment that you seek.

The speakers you have are world class and will allow you to hear the differences that components can make.  Don't let this guy make you second guess your decisions. 

Enjoy the music and experience.

George

 

[woodsyi]

What about the age old biamping with ss on bass and tubes on the mid/highs? Can you biamp HT3?  Since I biamp, I am curious if any body tried that with HT3s.

[zybar]

What about the age old biamping with ss on bass and tubes on the mid/highs? Can you biamp HT3?  Since I biamp, I am curious if any body tried that with HT3s.

You can bi-amp, but I haven't tried it.

George

[woodsyi]

I would love to get a pair of HT3 to try my hand at actively biamping with my accumulating amps -- gettting to be like Chris.  Unless there is a switch for biamping, I am guessing passive biamping is what is offered now.  I wonder if a pair can be ordered to have active biamping switch that will take the woofer out of the loop.  Come to think of it, can Dennis set up a powered woofer version and work out the crossover details? 

[zybar]

I would love to get a pair of HT3 to try my hand at actively biamping with my accumulating amps -- gettting to be like Chris.  Unless there is a switch for biamping, I am guessing passive biamping is what is offered now.  I wonder if a pair can be ordered to have active biamping switch that will take the woofer out of the loop.  Come to think of it, can Dennis set up a powered woofer version and work out the crossover details? 

There is an active version of the HT3's that uses DEQX for the crossover:

http://www.salksound.com/ht3a.html

Othwerwise it is indeed passively bi-amped.

George