[Wayner]

I don't know how long I've tried to make the anti-skating on my Empire 598 work properly. I am one of those guys that had a blank disc made out of .125" thk acrylic to check the anti-skating for turntables. I have 3 vintage American made turntables that I enjoy, one is the AR-XA, the other a VPI HW-19 and the third is the Empire 598 mkII. The VPI has an Audioquest PT-8 tonearm and the anti-skate dials right in. The AR doesn't have an anti-skate, but it dials right in. The Empire has one but I just found out today, it sounds great with the damn setting just turned off! I hear the new VPI tonearms don't have any anti-skating feature on them either and I hear the attachable option they offer sucks. I run a Grado Gold in the Empire and I like the catridge...no hummmm or other issues, just when I have the anti-skating on, I get a weird distortion in the high frequencies........which means it's not tracking properly. I know I have the cartridge aligned properly with the proper offset angle and overhang. Anyone have any opinion on this?

[SET Man]

Hey!

   Wayner, you are not the only one that is confusing about this. I have Rega Planar 2 with the RB250 arm and I have wrecking my brain out about this. Have been sliding the anti-skating back and forth.

    I have Sumiko Blue Point Specail EVO III (high-output MC) I used the Classic Record LP of which is flat... no lip at the beginning. I just keep increasing the anti-skating until I the center image locked-in right between my speaker. Too low and the left channel seem to be louder and the right channel sound distorted in the high. Well, so far so good.

    Personally I'm not 100% sure what is the proper way to do it. But I think anti-skating should part of tone arm. Sure that most LP other than Classic Record are not pressed flat so the anti-skating will need to be adjust as you play from the beginning, middle than near the end... if you are really crazy about it.

Take care,
Buddy

   

[andyr]

I don't know how long I've tried to make the anti-skating on my Empire 598 work properly. I am one of those guys that had a blank disc made out of .125" thk acrylic to check the anti-skating for turntables. I have 3 vintage American made turntables that I enjoy, one is the AR-XA, the other a VPI HW-19 and the third is the Empire 598 mkII. The VPI has an Audioquest PT-8 tonearm and the anti-skate dials right in. The AR doesn't have an anti-skate, but it dials right in. The Empire has one but I just found out today, it sounds great with the damn setting just turned off! I hear the new VPI tonearms don't have any anti-skating feature on them either and I hear the attachable option they offer sucks. I run a Grado Gold in the Empire and I like the catridge...no hummmm or other issues, just when I have the anti-skating on, I get a weird distortion in the high frequencies........which means it's not tracking properly. I know I have the cartridge aligned properly with the proper offset angle and overhang. Anyone have any opinion on this?

Wayner,

I think you are a tad confused on anti-skate ... like many!   

Firstly, it doesn't matter how many t/tables you have (antique or modern) ... it's the arm on the t/table which requires anti-skate (not the t/table).  So just talk about the arms you've got.

Secondly, a blank disk - vinyl or acrylic - is no help with anti-skate.  The amount of  anti-skate required by an arm/cartridge combination is influenced by the movement of the stylus in the groove, not just the rotational speed of the disk ... so a smooth disk with no grooves is useless for setting correct anti-skate.

Thirdly, yes, Harry W of VPI fame considers anti-skate a myth.  However, just about every other arm mfr doesn't ... IMO that just means Harry is misguided - I'll go with the majority!      Irrespective of that, you can hear with your own ears when anti-skate is set right.

I'm sure some arms (and some cartridge profiles) require less anti-skate than others.  Something like the HFNRR Test LP is a good place to get a good starting point for the correct anti-skate setting but getting the optimum setting requires listening!     IE. you need to use your ears ... and probably orchestral music is the best kind of music to judge it with.

Ignoring gross wrong anti-skate settings which create buzzing or HF distortion in one channel or the other ... when you have too much anti-skate, the R channel appears "forward" of the L and when you have to little anti-skate, the R channel appears slightly "backward", compared to the L.

When anti-skate is set properly, the soundstage seems just like it would if you were in the concert hall, sitting in the middle of a row!!   

Regards,

Andy

[lcrim]

Anti-skating is supposed to compensate for the tendency of the stylus to be pulled to the inside surface of the groove wall by the inward spiral of the grooves  It is supposed to even things out so that the stylus rides in the center of the groove.
The Rega 250 arm, I seem to remember, does it with a spring.  My older SME Series III tonearm and most of the MMF & Project arms employ a string and counter weight arranged to provide a counterforce.
I have strained to hear a difference in the sound as anti-skating is adjusted and also as VTA is varied and sometimes I think I can hear it.   

[eric the red]

Skating

Anti-skating


Sorry.... 

[Wayner]

Andy,

I understand anti-skating very well, thank you. The problem I am having is with my un-modified Empire 598 mk II with its standard issue 990 tonearm. I like to keep the American classics as original as possible. It seams that when the proper amount of anti-skating force is set (according to the owners manual) I detect a high frequency distortion which is heard in both channels. It's that old ssssssssssing thing on vocals and high frequencies. It is more noticable in the last 3/4 of an inch of the record side. I have increased the tracking force from 1 1/2 grams to 1 3/4 grams and this really didn't seam to help. Yesterday, I decided to dial the anti-skating force to zero after trying all of the other positions and the high frequency distortion went away. My VTA or rake angle is properly set and the cartridge is properly aligned. This is something I haven't heard before until I put the Grado Gold in it. Perhaps the Grado's stylus assembly is not a match for this turntable as the turntable is going on about 37 years old. Perhaps the spring mechanism in the tonearm innerds doesn't work properly anymore or maybe it never worked very well from the beginning, meaning the Grado may be more unforgiving than some of the other cartridges that I have installed in it through all of these years. I suppose I could put a new arm in it, but I think that spoils the fun of it all. I am just looking for ideas or suspects to check.

Thanks for the feedback!

[TheChairGuy]

Wayner,

Try the Grado/van Alstine Longhorn mod (look thru past topics on Vinyl Circle).  It will help your finicky Grado track better, perhaps eliminating need for any (or less) anti-skating.

TCG

[enjoythemusic]

Agree with Andy that blank vinyl records are of little 'real' use. The totally greek approach would be to try a few mono discs, hookup an oscilloscope with one channel phase reversed and wait for full cancellation. Of course this is also dependant on how well the mono disk was cut channel to channel depending on the cutter head, so try a few different mono LPs.

You could also find an LP with a steady tone and use a meter and check each channel's output until you have the same measurement, though not sure who offers such a disc. i think HFNRR had such an LP years ago and i have a copy here. Try www.acousticsounds.com and see if they still have the HFNRR test LP.

[nathanm]

Although I've blamed high frequency distortion on the hate part of my love\hate relationship with vinyl, the one thing I find really annoying about anti-skate is that it makes it impossible to drop the needle where you want it.  The tonearm keeps floating inwards away from the carefully eyeballed, between-track position I wanted as it drops.  It took me a number of unsuccessful attempts to bypass the big, skipping scratch on a certain album before I figured out that anti-skate was conspiring against me.

The anti-skate on my Rega arm is kinda flaky anyway, it looks like a slider but it's more or less an on\off kinda thing.  Weird.

[BobRex]

No Andy, Harry W does not consider anti-skate a myth.  He never said that.  What he does believe is that current methods for anti-skate compensation are at best a kludge that doesn't work as effectively at all points on a record.  He feels that since a-s compensation is an approximation, his solution (twisted leads) is just as affective as any other approximation.  Keep in mind that he now offers alternative, more typical a-s compensation for his arms.  Reports from the field claim no difference.

I think, if you dig, you'll find that there are other manufacturers that recognize the flaws in a-s compensation.  It's just that they haven't found an alternate solution.

[mtodde]

I haven't noticed a burning need for as on my Scout.

[andyr]

I haven't noticed a burning need for as on my Scout.

Hi mtodde,

Yes I can understand you may not have "noticed a need" for anti-skating on your Scout ... but does the Scout give you the ability to play with AS?  If you can't adjust it ... then obviously you won't notice its lack!!??   

Do you listen to orchestral music?  If you don't then you probably can't judge whether anti-skate is required or not.  if you do then does one channel seem "closer" to your listening position than the other?

Regards,

Andy

[andyr]

No Andy, Harry W does not consider anti-skate a myth.  He never said that.  What he does believe is that current methods for anti-skate compensation are at best a kludge that doesn't work as effectively at all points on a record.  He feels that since a-s compensation is an approximation, his solution (twisted leads) is just as affective as any other approximation.  Keep in mind that he now offers alternative, more typical a-s compensation for his arms.  Reports from the field claim no difference. ...

Hi Bob,
Yes, good point ... I do remember reading that Harry W said that!

However, I don't agree with his theory that a "kludge" is not worth having.  And I don't think people with one leg (ie. amputees) would agree either since, with that philosophy, there would be no point fitting them with an artificial leg ... as it doesn't work as well as a "real" leg!   

As I've seen people with artifial legs run the 100m faster than I (as a "whole leg" guy) can, I tend to think there's merit in kludges! 

And FWIW, I think my Graham 2.2 has implemented variable anti-skate across the record surface quite well.   

Regards,

Andy

[Wayner]

There is a new revelation in the Empire anti-skating delima. I took out the new Grado Gold cartridge (a $180 cartridge) and replaced it with my old Audio Techinca AT450 ( I think), and it is also (a $44.95 cartridge that is used) and all of my weird distortion problems went away. The new conclusion is that Grado cartridges suck. The AT cartridge played Al DiMeola-Casino in ways that I have never heard before. Better than my VPI with the Sumiko Blue Point Special III. My fellow vinyl heads....we are being led down a road of B.S. In fact I may have to say, the best sounding TT I have is my old AR-XA with another older Audio Techinca cartridge in that. That's about $100 dollars worth of turntable kicking butt on $3,000 worth of turntable. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...................

[WEEZ]

Ah Ah Ahhh...before you accuse Grado cardridges of 'sucking'...use one with an arm that mates well with a Grado first. 

A Grado sings quite well with a complimentary arm.

WEEZ

[mtodde]

I haven't noticed a burning need for as on my Scout.

Hi mtodde,

Yes I can understand you may not have "noticed a need" for anti-skating on your Scout ... but does the Scout give you the ability to play with AS?  If you can't adjust it ... then obviously you won't notice its lack!!??   

Do you listen to orchestral music?  If you don't then you probably can't judge whether anti-skate is required or not.  if you do then does one channel seem "closer" to your listening position than the other?

Regards,

Andy

I mainly listen to classic jazz but do listen to some orchestral music.  I haven't noticed any anomolies and I attend the symphony regularly so I'm pretty used to hearing live music.

[TheChairGuy]

There is a new revelation in the Empire anti-skating delima. I took out the new Grado Gold cartridge (a $180 cartridge) and replaced it with my old Audio Techinca AT450 ( I think), and it is also (a $44.95 cartridge that is used) and all of my weird distortion problems went away. The new conclusion is that Grado cartridges suck. The AT cartridge played Al DiMeola-Casino in ways that I have never heard before. Better than my VPI with the Sumiko Blue Point Special III. My fellow vinyl heads....we are being led down a road of B.S. In fact I may have to say, the best sounding TT I have is my old AR-XA with another older Audio Techinca cartridge in that. That's about $100 dollars worth of turntable kicking butt on $3,000 worth of turntable. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...................

Audio Technica do track well - my AT440ML is stellar at it.

I'm not sure Grado's 'suck' so much as they are finicky.

Before you pronounce yourself cheated or rooked, put that ego down one more time (remember the nice effect of using that Slick 50?) and try the van Alstine Longhorn mod.  If not the whole she-bang (squirting 1000 centistoke silicone inside), just give it a 1.5" handlebar.  You will find it to become a more than adequate tracker and may eliminate many of the issues you are finding.

The Slick 50 addition was subtle compared to what I think you will find with the Longhorn addition.  Check thru the long post and look at my or ohenry's pics on how to do it and our (sometimes stunning) results.

It even improved my AT440ML...and my Ortofon X5-MC 

I think you will find Mr. van Alstine's gift to us to be mighty nice indeed.  He even spilled his 'secrets' one day - we think we caught him on a little too much vioxx pain meds before his hip replacement.  Lucky for us he was in excrutiating pain

Come on, old fart 

[BobRex]

Andy, you must have a big problem with VPI.  Harry, once again, never said that a kludge is not worth having.  Here are his exact words taken from the FAQ on his website:

"Why doesn't the JMW tonearm offer an anti-skating adjustment?
The term "skating" refers to the vector force created as a tonearm with an offset headshell traces a record groove. This force, which continously changes across the surface of a record, tends to pull the arm towards the record's center. Many tonearms incorporate devices which attempt to counteract this force. Unfortunately, the best these devices can do is approximate the force required to counteract the ever-changing skating force. Worse yet, the materials used to implement most anti-skating devices vibrate and are, therefore, a source of noise.

A simple twist of the JMW's signal wire will supply more than enough anti-skate with no deleterious effects. Simple yet very effective."

So by twisting the wires you can adjust the a-s force.  His arms may not use the traditional spring or counterweight methods, but there is a-s compensation.  Therefore he is not running a "one-legged" race.  And keep in mind that in order to appease those who follow dogma instead of innovation, Harry is offering a more traditional a-s compensation.  It can be retrofitted to any VPI arm.  And as I said before, reports from the field indicate that there is NO DIFFERENCE in performance between the two methods.

You like your Graham, no problem - it's a great arm.  But have you spent any time with an equivalent VPI arm?  Or are you just bashing what doesn't fit into your mindset?  If you have instead worked with the arm and discovered that the twisted lead scheme doesn't work (which btw runs counter to what many critics have written), then I apologize.

[andyr]

Andy, you must have a big problem with VPI.  Harry, once again, never said that a kludge is not worth having.  Here are his exact words taken from the FAQ on his website:

You like your Graham, no problem - it's a great arm.  But have you spent any time with an equivalent VPI arm?  Or are you just bashing what doesn't fit into your mindset?  If you have instead worked with the arm and discovered that the twisted lead scheme doesn't work (which btw runs counter to what many critics have written), then I apologize.

Hi Bob,

No need to apologise ... I certainly haven't spent any time with any VPI arm - or even seen one, in the land Downunda!   

And thank you for putting me right on what HW did or did not say (I guess I was merely repeating what I had heard "second/third/X hand" about Harry's stance on anti-skate).

I am not someone who keeps changing their gear in an effort to "go one better"!!  I had a Dynavector DV505 arm for over 20 years - at the time I bought it (1978) it was one of the best arms around.  I finally decided to part with it because I was sick and tired of the user-unfriendly way it implemented changing VTA and azimuth ... not because I thought it sounded bad.  So I bought a Graham 2.2 because of its ease of changing everything - and I expect to have this for the next 20 years!! 

My habit of keeping hold of things doesn't mean, however, that I don't seek to approach closer to musical Nirvana ... viz. my trusty old LP12 - also bought in 1978 - which has been upgraded with all the things Linn have come out with since I bought it and which will certainly have a motor change later this year or in 2007.  But changing over a turntable (rather than just adding to it) is a significant expense so I have never considered auditioning a SOTA, VPI etc. as a replacement for my LP12.

Regards,

Andy

[Wayner]

O.K. Chair Guy, you've made me jump through two hoops (the first one was burning, HA,HA). Anyway all in fun, I went downtown yesterday and if I didn't find everything I needed to build a Longhorn for my Grado. Franks website is filled with all kinds of neat stuff. Anyway, It took about 2 hours to make and I think I did a real good job (for an Old Fart). This morning I installed it back into the Empire, did all of the aligning and then put on The Cars "Door to Door". Damn. There is so much information in those record grooves, I wonder if anyone can really open the door to this old technology. Maybe this is the same kind of problem with CD's. The information is there, we just haven't quite figured out how to get it all out of there in one cohesive, beautiful piece. It still bothers me that I have to tweek a $180 dollar cartridge to make it work right.

Thanks Chair Guy!