Great amp recommendations; musical, detailed, quiet

Carlman · « **on:** 3 Jul 2006, 03:21 pm »

As many have been doing, I've been watching Zybar check out various amps and watch his reactions... mainly because I'd like a new amp also. I'm hoping to be 'done' (again) for at least a few years with upgrading audio gear.

The short question is: What would you recommend that is both detailed and musical with excellent imaging qualities and no compromises for under 6,k MSRP?

The history and long question is:

I've tried a few over the years in my system, namely an AKSA 100wN+ (favorite SS), TacT 2150 (favorite digital), Butler 2250, Bel Canto evo2i, EE Minimax 8w, EE Integrated 24w, Nuforce ref8,9,b, Scott Nixon Mono's (kits and Scott-made), and many others I can't remember at the moment. I've heard amps at other people's houses that I also liked such as the McIntosh 502's and a pair of Rogue M-150's. I really liked both of the last 2 for different reasons. The McIntosh translates emotion better than anything I've ever heard. To me they have a slight dark sound that's hard to describe but they're clean, have impact, and make great music. The M-150's had a little more of an 'alive' sound and tones were very smooth, like they are in real life. However, it's been too long to remember the rest of what I liked.

The AKSA was my favorite SS amp to date because it was fast and had good PRAT, which I do like.. but it did impart some of its own character on the sound. (The TacT was good in this regard also) I'd like a more transparent AKSA and maybe with a little more power... and a little lower noise floor if possible. I like detail and I like 'musicality' but I don't want to sacrifice one for the other. And in the next price-tier I don't feel I should have to.

I would certainly like to hear the CI Audio D-200's and the McCormack DNA-500.. and the BAT VK600SE for that matter.

However, part of the issue is cost. The Rogue's (seemed) to me have offered the most music per dollar but it's been too long to say that for sure. I have a hard time believing the CIA D-200's are 'all that' but I'm willing to be proven wrong. I haven't been a fan of chip amps.

Another thing I don't want is a lot of heat. I live in the Southeast and my sound room is small. I also don't like paying a million dollars for electricity, nor do I want to have to remember to turn on and off my gear. Tubes keep getting less and less interesting to me... and Class A is a non-option.

Given all that, and a budget of maybe 3-6,k MSRP, what would you be considering?

BTW, I'm powering a pair of Piega P5 Limiteds
The preamp is a fully modified TacT RCS 2.0S and source is a computer.

tvad4 · « **Reply #1 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 03:32 pm »

Quote from: Carlman on 3 Jul 2006, 03:21 pm

The short question is: What would you recommend that is both detailed and musical with excellent imaging qualities and no compromises for under 6,k MSRP?

You've just described the Moscode 401HR. We compared it to the McCormack DNA-500 this weekend. Associated gear was CJ CT5, Modwright 999ES and B&W SIG 805. Cabling was Purist Audio Venustas and Revelation Audio. Power cords were Purist Audio Dominus, Aqueous and Elrod. All components were connected to a Sound Applications power conditioner.

The Moscode left the McCormack in the dust. More extension and air. Lower noise floor. More life in the music.

95bcwh · « **Reply #2 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 03:37 pm »

Quote from: tvad4 on 3 Jul 2006, 03:32 pm

Quote from: Carlman on 3 Jul 2006, 03:21 pm

The short question is: What would you recommend that is both detailed and musical with excellent imaging qualities and no compromises for under 6,k MSRP?
You've just described the Moscode 401HR. We compared it to the McCormack DNA-500 this weekend. Associated gear was CJ CT5, Modwright 999ES and B&W SIG 805. Cabling was Purist Audio Venustas and Revelation Audio. Power cords were Purist Audio Dominus, Aqueous and Elrod. All components were connected to a Sound Applications power conditioner.

The Moscode left the McCormack in the dust. More extension and air. Lower noise floor. More life in the music.

Hmm... considering that the Moscode is $2k cheaper than McCormack.... this beast will certainly be on my list of audition!!

Damned, I just checked their website... they even arrange for pick-up if you don't like their amp!!!!!

What are we waiting for....let's just run and grap one!!!!

flintstone · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 04:25 pm »

The Rogue amps are a good choice for people who like most of the qualties of good solid state...but, would also like to bring some midrange tube qualities into their systems....ie, they are not "classic" tube sounding amp types.

My Rogue M-120 Magnums do a very respectable job driving my large fullrange Apogee panal speakers (4 ohm/87 db) in my fairly large room...they replaced a small Krell amp.

They are as extended at the low and high freq extreams as the Krell (the bass is even more musical)....and at the same time much better (to my taste), in the all important midrange.....kind of a hi-brid sound so to speak and exactly what I wanted in "my" system.

Hardly worth owning fullrange speakers and then buying a tube amp that can not control them. Of course if someones speakers have a very limited freq response...you could get by, and be very happy with all manor of tube amps IMO.

So, always some small trade offs come into play in most budgets when we build our systems towards our intended goal. Most people who like the Rogue products seem to think their trade-offs are very small in relation to dollars paid...bang for buck....and all that stuff.

Good luck and happy hunting!

Dave

CIAudio · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 04:54 pm »

Quote

I would certainly like to hear the CI Audio D-200's and the McCormack DNA-500.. and the BAT VK600SE for that matter. However, part of the issue is cost. The Rogue's (seemed) to me have offered the most music per dollar but it's been too long to say that for sure. I have a hard time believing the CIA D-200's are 'all that' but I'm willing to be proven wrong. I haven't been a fan of chip amps.

D-200's are not "chip amps", they are fully discrete other than an opamp input stage.

lazydays · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 05:11 pm »

I think I'd be looking for a pair of Conrad Johnson ST140's if it were tubes in my mind. I love the Conrad Johnson sound. But if it's solid state, then maybe you ought to take a look at the Odyssey
mono extremes. These amps are very smooth with no harsh edges in the sound. Almost tube like in many ways (kinda reminds me of a Sonic Frontiers amp in sound).
gary

zybar · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 05:50 pm »

Carl,

In the price range you mentioned I would try very hard to hear the Dodd 120's as well as the D-200's.

Send me a PM and I'll help you audition the D-200's.

I don't think the BAT will work for you given the price point, heat and electricity concerns.

George

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 06:23 pm »

Carl,

If your room is small (whatever that means - mine's 12 x 15' with 8-12 ceiling and I describe it as small, too) and you have 91db efficient Piega's....you don't seem to be a good candidate for ultra powered muscle amps up to $6K.

20 watts will be probably all you ever use to blast your senses clear out of your room.

I took a few years of amp swapping before I found the Odyssey Khartago Extreme Mono's at $1600 from Klaus. They really are monstrously good, pack some 150watts plus in it's skinny frame, and generate something like 100 amps. The reason it's more is simply dealer mark-up and that Klaus has some economies of scale and can build at lower margins than most. If they were offered thru dealers thru most audio manufacturers, I'd estimate they'd be in the $4K range. I've found that true monoblocks have theoretically advantages that really pan out in reality, as well.

Mine drive my modded Maggie MMG's to absurd levels of volume and clarity.

They sound great after 30 minutes of warm up time (I don't find they benefit leaving them on all the time - and I hate the thought of wasting electricity if they sound 0.00005% better from it), are complete overkill for your current or likely future needs in terms of power and save you bundles in the process. The 20 year warranty is quite a nice-ty, too

I'm interested in all manners of Class D/T amps, tube gear, too...yet come back around to the Odyssey's for the overall presentation.

Save a bundle - try the Odyssey's. I'm not sure if you have before - you didn't mention them in your honor roll of amps listed.

marvda1 · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 07:20 pm »

carlman are you checking this out?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=28879.0
this is not my add.

Carlman · « **Reply #9 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 07:23 pm »

Thanks for all the replies. I've never heard of the Moscode... But I have heard the Odyssey mono's. Not sure which ones they were but that was at least 3 years ago and in a system that was undergoing various changes, so it hardly counts as 'having heard them'.

I agree that I probably don't "need" lots o' watts but I don't want to be limited by that. Whether it's 10, 100 or 1000, I don't care as long as it sounds good. I will eventually move and I plan to have about a 15x20 room. For the next couple of years I have 11' W x 13' D to work in. However, I have found that watts have little to do with my actual requirements for an amp.

For giggles I hooked up my Sharp EX-111 to the Piega's. It was 'barely' adequate but adequate from a power perspective. It also helped me appreciate the Butler.... which it should at 3,k vs. 300... or whatever the MSRP was... Definitely no contest in SQ.

BTW, sorry for assuming the CIA D200 was a chip amp.. it just looks like one. I thought it was based on the UCD400... which I also thought was a chipset type amplification. In any case, I'll be in touch with Zybar very soon.

Thanks again,
Carl

PS I'll be selling the Butler to fund the new amp (whatever it is)... I'll post an ad in the trading post when I get some photos. PM me if interested.

zybar · « **Reply #10 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 07:26 pm »

Quote from: marvda1 on 3 Jul 2006, 07:20 pm

carlman are you checking this out?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=28879.0
this is not my add.

How could he miss it?

Tvad posts to it at least once a day!

I am still shocked that nobody has bought the amps at that price.

George

Carlman · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 07:37 pm »

Quote from: marvda1 on 3 Jul 2006, 07:20 pm

carlman are you checking this out?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=28879.0
this is not my add.

Yes, I saw that... It's an option but I'm not going nuts over the idea for whatever reason. I know they are a great deal but I'd have to hear them again to decide for sure.

Another one I'd forgot to mention I wanted to try was the Belles 350A... It's supposed to be quite nice also. I've never heard a Belles, though.

-C

Marbles · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 07:48 pm »

Tyson liked his AVA 550 amp a lot. Even better than his Odyssey amps. I can't remember what version of Odyssey he had though.

jswallac · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 07:52 pm »

I have not heard it myself, but the new Red Wine Audio Signature 30 sounds like just the ticket. Dead quiet, musical, battery powered, and plenty of muscle for your speakers.

tvad4 · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 08:02 pm »

Quote from: zybar on 3 Jul 2006, 07:26 pm

Quote from: marvda1 on 3 Jul 2006, 07:20 pm
carlman are you checking this out?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=28879.0
this is not my add.

How could he miss it?

Tvad posts to it at least once a day!

I am still shocked that nobody has bought the amps at that price.

George

Usually more. Gotta be proactive and keep up the Chinese Water Torture advertising plan. You do notice how you tend to remember those commercials on TV that are relentlessly aired over, and over, and over...

tvad4 · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 08:06 pm »

Quote from: Carlman on 3 Jul 2006, 07:23 pm

Thanks for all the replies. I've never heard of the Moscode...

It was reviewed in the May 2006 (?) issue of Stereophile by Wes Phillips, who I believe bought the review unit, and it was also reviewed in The Absolute Sound at the end of 2005.
Check it out. It's worth your trouble. I don't wax poetic about gear very often.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #16 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 08:12 pm »

Quote from: jswallac on 3 Jul 2006, 07:52 pm

I have not heard it myself, but the new Red Wine Audio Signature 30 sounds like just the ticket. Dead quiet, musical, battery powered, and plenty of muscle for your speakers.

Srajan sure seemed to like it. If I was going to move on a new amp that would definitely be one my short list. With a 30 day money back satisfaction guarantee you have nothing to lose.

John

95bcwh · « **Reply #17 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 09:04 pm »

Quote from: tvad4 on 3 Jul 2006, 08:06 pm

Quote from: Carlman on 3 Jul 2006, 07:23 pm
Thanks for all the replies. I've never heard of the Moscode...

It was reviewed in the May 2006 (?) issue of Stereophile by Wes Phillips, who I believe bought the review unit, and it was also reviewed in The Absolute Sound at the end of 2005.
Check it out. It's worth your trouble. I don't wax poetic about gear very often.

So are you keeping the Moscode?

tvad4 · « **Reply #18 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 09:08 pm »

Quote

So are you keeping the Moscode?

Leaning that way, yes.

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #19 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 09:13 pm »

Quote from: tvad4 on 3 Jul 2006, 08:06 pm

Quote from: Carlman on 3 Jul 2006, 07:23 pm
Thanks for all the replies. I've never heard of the Moscode...

It was reviewed in the May 2006 (?) issue of Stereophile by Wes Phillips, who I believe bought the review unit, and it was also reviewed in The Absolute Sound at the end of 2005.
Check it out. It's worth your trouble. I don't wax poetic about gear very often.

The Moscode has some nostalgia going for it, but a Bryston 4B-SST is a better performer and you can pocket several thousand dollars to boot.