Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison

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EclecticSeeker

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Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« on: 1 Jul 2006, 01:40 am »
I am going to indulge myself a bit and play audio equipment reviewer.  Will try to keep this brief and focused, though.  I have been a Van Alstine enthusiast for over 25 years. I am the current happy owner of his latest and greatest, an Ultra SL preamp and Ultra 550 amplifier.  I am writing to share the results of informal listening tests I arranged to gauge the U550 against possible competition. 

What follows is a report of the listening tests of two friends and me, as objectively as I can express them.  The caveat is that none of us are professional reviewers, and our tests were not exactly scientific.  I will say that between the three of us, we have over 100 years of dedication to music and audio.  Two of us were Van Alstine fans, the other was definitely not.

Associated equipment consisted of an Electrocompaniet CD player/DAC, Nordost interconnects and cabling, and B&W 802D speakers.  It would have been nice to have a turntable and vinyl involved, but we were challenged quite enough pulling this together without the additional complications that would have entailed.  We used what was unquestionably the best preamp available to us – my Ultra SL.  I won’t make this report even longer by discussing the diverse music we played.  (OK - just one exception: Mary Black's HOLY GROUND is wonderful!)

We began with a pair of VTL monoblocks in the system, MB 185 tube units that are current models.  We expected better sound than we heard with this set-up.  It seemed veiled, and the imaging of the 802D’s was nowhere near what we knew they were capable of.  We switched to the U550, and suddenly the music came alive.  A much wider range was revealed, clearer, more transparent, and certainly much more detailed.  Imaging was vastly improved.  The VTL’s sounded absolutely soggy by comparison.  Of course the U550 is more powerful than the VTL’s and is a hybrid as opposed to the VTL’s tube construction, but this was obviously no contest.

We took a break before going on to our next amps, which were more of a challenge:  a current-model pair of McIntosh MC 501’s.  This is a highly regarded tube monoblock, having won a number of awards including Stereophile's 2004 Amplifier of the Year.  The Mac’s had much more authority than did the VTL’s, more that came through on both the bottom and top ends.  Soundstaging was very good.  Switching to the U550, the music again became more detailed, more transparent, more extended, and certainly more “live.”  Bass was fantastic, unquestionably tighter and cleaner, and soundstage was at least the equal of the 501’s.  The smoothness of the 501’s seemed by comparison to be a certain fuzziness in definition on the edge and the decay of some notes.  The owner of the 501’s was rather chagrined at first... before he got into purely listening to the music, as we all did.

I have had experience with a number of other of Frank’s amps, and am confident that any one of his current models will prove significantly superior to most of the other gear out there.  I travel some, and visit high-end audio stores in other parts of the country whenever possible.  Though I have not managed to hear Halcro or Levinson gear, that is probably where you would need to go to start to approach the sound quality of his best models.  (If anyone has access to those in the upper Midwest and would like to arrange a comparison, please let me know.)

As sold as I am on Frank’s amps, I am even more enthusiastic about his preamps.  I regret that I did not write up my previous preamp comparison, but those results were even more decisive.  I own a Transcendence 7 as well as the Ultra SL, and believe that it is no exaggeration to suggest that there is no greater value in audio electronics today!
« Last Edit: 2 Jul 2006, 02:00 am by EclecticSeeker »

zybar

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Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #1 on: 1 Jul 2006, 02:23 am »
The McIntosh MC501 amps are solid state and not tube. 

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=14&cat=Power+Amplifiers&prodid=1043&product=MC501

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/..%5Cdata%5Ccompare%5Campcomp3.04web.pdf

Kind of hurts your credibility if you don't even know the gear you are writing about.   :oops:

George



EclecticSeeker

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Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #2 on: 1 Jul 2006, 03:09 am »
The McIntosh MC501 amps are solid state and not tube. 
Kind of hurts your credibility if you don't even know the gear you are writing about.   :oops:

George


Damn.  You're right, of course.  Good thing I don't claim to be professional about this. 
EclecticSeeker
 



Nick B

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Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #3 on: 1 Jul 2006, 06:33 am »
Eclectic
Enjoyed your comments nonetheless.Glad your a happy AVA owner
Regards
Nick

warnerwh

Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #4 on: 5 Jul 2006, 02:30 am »
I agree that I believe the AVA 550exr I have is about as good as anything. It's sound is so clean compared to any other SS amp I've owned that it has surprised me. The tonal characteristics are as good as I think it gets. To get better it would no doubt cost a huge amount of money and to be honest I doubt it gets much better.  I'm sure this result comes from someone continually trying to make his products better over a period of several decades.

tonyptony

Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #5 on: 6 Jul 2006, 01:27 am »
I agree that I believe the AVA 550exr I have is about as good as anything. It's sound is so clean compared to any other SS amp I've owned that it has surprised me. The tonal characteristics are as good as I think it gets. To get better it would no doubt cost a huge amount of money and to be honest I doubt it gets much better.

I feel the same way as you about my own 550EXR, but there is (by all accounts) a way to get to the next level without that huge amount of money - the Ultra. Everything that I've read, both on the boards and privately, tells me the FetValve Ultra really is better. I have to consider the prospect that this is true, but I'm actually a little scared to send mine in for the upgrade - how can it be better than what I'm hearing now?  :wink:

Having said that, I don't want to suggest that the EXR is perfect. I've been around the high end too long; there is no truly perfect piece of audio gear, if perfection is measured in terms of the real thing. And that doesn't even begin to take into account system synergy and room acoustics! I will concede that there may be some things about my EXR that could be better. But even admitting that, there is still a sense of such musical satisfaction that I can't bring myself to put it in the box and ship it off... yet!  :green:

EclecticSeeker

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Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #6 on: 6 Jul 2006, 05:54 pm »
I will concede that there may be some things about my EXR that could be better. But even admitting that, there is still a sense of such musical satisfaction that I can't bring myself to put it in the box and ship it off... yet!  :green:

Yeah, I know what you mean.  The EXR is really an excellent amp, but the Ultra IS better.  I went from the 550EXR to the Ultra, and could tell the improvement immediately.  It simply does everything better - more detail, more transparency, tighter bass, etc., etc.   I also went from the T7 preamp to the SL Ultra (though I kept the T7), and although the SL is also definitely better, it was not as dramatic an improvement as in the 550 upgrade.  Go for it - you won't regret it.

ricmon

Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #7 on: 6 Jul 2006, 08:43 pm »
I will concede that there may be some things about my EXR that could be better. But even admitting that, there is still a sense of such musical satisfaction that I can't bring myself to put it in the box and ship it off... yet!  :green:

Yeah, I know what you mean.  The EXR is really an excellent amp, but the Ultra IS better.  I went from the 550EXR to the Ultra, and could tell the improvement immediately.  It simply does everything better - more detail, more transparency, tighter bass, etc., etc.   I also went from the T7 preamp to the SL Ultra (though I kept the T7), and although the SL is also definitely better, it was not as dramatic an improvement as in the 550 upgrade.  Go for it - you won't regret it.

I'm glad to see these post.  I have been having the same ambivalence about sending my tr7 and 550exr for upgrades and was further perplexed about which component to send first.  I spoke to Frank about this and he recommended upgrading the preamp first.  So tonyptony do you think it may best to do the amp first?

tonyptony

Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #8 on: 6 Jul 2006, 10:13 pm »
Yeah, I know what you mean.  The EXR is really an excellent amp, but the Ultra IS better.  I went from the 550EXR to the Ultra, and could tell the improvement immediately.  It simply does everything better - more detail, more transparency, tighter bass, etc., etc.   I also went from the T7 preamp to the SL Ultra (though I kept the T7), and although the SL is also definitely better, it was not as dramatic an improvement as in the 550 upgrade.  Go for it - you won't regret it.

You have me on the edge of my seat, Eclectic! Does the Ultra do these things better at the expense of anything? For instance, is the soundstage positioning any different? Closer? Further away? Width? Are there parts of the frequency spectrum that now stand out in a different balance from the EXR? Does it sound "hard"? (I find this to be a common side effect of amps that are known for being very transparent and detailed.) Any change to the "see a real instrument (or singer) in the room at the right shape and size" factor? And I guess the most important questions: does it sound more like real music than the EXR?

...slobber slobber...

tonyptony

Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #9 on: 6 Jul 2006, 10:15 pm »
I'm glad to see these post.  I have been having the same ambivalence about sending my tr7 and 550exr for upgrades and was further perplexed about which component to send first.  I spoke to Frank about this and he recommended upgrading the preamp first.  So tonyptony do you think it may best to do the amp first?

Well ricmon, for me it's not a hard decision as I don't have an AVA pre. My EXR is fed by a Pass X1. I sit there and "see" the music in my listening room.

EclecticSeeker

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Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #10 on: 7 Jul 2006, 12:24 am »
You have me on the edge of my seat, Eclectic! Does the Ultra do these things better at the expense of anything? For instance, is the soundstage positioning any different? Closer? Further away? Width? Are there parts of the frequency spectrum that now stand out in a different balance from the EXR? Does it sound "hard"? (I find this to be a common side effect of amps that are known for being very transparent and detailed.) Any change to the "see a real instrument (or singer) in the room at the right shape and size" factor? And I guess the most important questions: does it sound more like real music than the EXR?

Ah, gee – I hardly know where to start in responding.  I think anyone with any critical ear who has heard both the EXR and the Ultra 550 will agree that the Ultra shares many of the sonic attributes of the EXR, but provides MORE of everything – more clarity, more dynamic presentation, depth, transparency...  Is this at the expense of any attributes of the EXR?  Hell no!   Does it sound hard?  I don’t think so - I think that the detail it reveals makes it more musical, though I understand your comment about hardness being a common side effect of “detailed” amps.  Does it sound more like real music?  Absolutely, positively, unquestionably!  What Frank has achieved with this hybrid design is truly amazing. 

Of course the best advice is the old truism that it’s best to listen to the piece you’re considering yourself.  Is there any way you could hear an Ultra, preferably in an A-B situation with your EXR?  I don’t know where you live, but a trip to AVA would be worthwhile if you could swing it.  That said, as I stated before, I can’t imagine that you’d regret upgrading.  In any case – good luck.

(Y’know, I can’t help adding – I am not familiar with your Pass X1, but I’d be willing to bet that Frank’s Ultra preamp - or a Transcendence - would leave it in the dust.)

To RICMON:  I might have suggested upgrading your amp before the preamp (as I did), but if Frank says to do the preamp first – by all means do that. 

tonyptony

Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #11 on: 7 Jul 2006, 08:47 pm »
Does it sound hard?  I don’t think so - I think that the detail it reveals makes it more musical, though I understand your comment about hardness being a common side effect of “detailed” amps.  Does it sound more like real music?  Absolutely, positively, unquestionably!  What Frank has achieved with this hybrid design is truly amazing. 

Of course the best advice is the old truism that it’s best to listen to the piece you’re considering yourself.  Is there any way you could hear an Ultra, preferably in an A-B situation with your EXR?  I don’t know where you live, but a trip to AVA would be worthwhile if you could swing it.

Eclectic, I like what you're telling me. I wouldn't have expected Frank to take a left turn into the "high end" (I quote because over the years I've found a few pieces of high end gear to have no sense of true musical reproduction whatsoever, although they sound "great"). I'm in South Jersey, a fair piece from AVA unfortunately. Not sure I've run across any posts from someone in my area who has an Ultra.

(Y’know, I can’t help adding – I am not familiar with your Pass X1, but I’d be willing to bet that Frank’s Ultra preamp - or a Transcendence - would leave it in the dust.)

Mmm, maybe. But IMO the Pass is one of the best preamps I've ever not heard...ever. No sonic signature that I can talk to, and it does this without blunting or "dulling" the source feed going into it. I have no doubt Frank's preamps are fine indeed, but a tube preamp is not in my plan. I've heard others that were great, but having a tube pre would just turn me into a perpetual tube roller. I know that going in; that's a big factor for me against a tube pre. Just the way I am.

brj

Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #12 on: 7 Jul 2006, 09:58 pm »
Are the "ultra" versions of Fet Valve amps documented anywhere?  Based on comments in this and other threads, it appears, for example, that the Ultra 550 is an upgrade to the 550EXR, but I only see the 550 EXR mentioned on the Van Alstine website.

Thanks!

Papajin

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Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #13 on: 7 Jul 2006, 10:16 pm »
I'm a little vague on the current AVA offerings also.  This thread has a bit of info including pricing.

avahifi

Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #14 on: 7 Jul 2006, 10:24 pm »
Our web site (www.avahifi.com) is in the process of being updated right now.  The Ultra and T8 preamps are posted now, the Fet Valve Ultra amps will follow in a few days, along with other revisions.

Its a lot easier for me now that I have two legs pretty much working normally again.

Frank Van Alstine

tonyptony

Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #15 on: 7 Jul 2006, 11:20 pm »
Frank, sent you a PM.

OldCoder

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Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #16 on: 8 Jul 2006, 02:19 pm »
tonyptony - I have Frank's T7 and the Ultra 550 amp, and I just love the combination.  I don't think of the T7 as a tube preamp though, anymore than I think of the Ultra 550 as a tube power amp.

They don't sound like tube gear, or any other gear I have ever heard.  Frank has used tubes (and various other devices) to make some audio equipment that reproduces music as well as anything I have ever heard.

I also have one of Frank's Omegastar 240 EXR amps, and while it is very good, it doesn't put the performer in the room with you the way the Ultra 550 does.

If you are leery about upgrading your amp, don't do it!  Just buy an Ultra, and compare them side by side.  I think you'll find there is no contest, and that you'll then have a great amp in the EXR for a second system.  Or you can send it to Frank to put in his used equipment list.

But I don't think you'll even consider returning the Ultra 500......

Hantra

Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #17 on: 13 Jul 2006, 08:52 pm »
I just got a pair of 501's myself, and I can tell you that even after 300 hours, it is not until you PUNISH them for 24 or so that they sound fantastic.  I am talking 200-500 watts constantly for 24 hours.   :rock:

Carlman

Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #18 on: 13 Jul 2006, 11:13 pm »
I just got a pair of 501's myself, and I can tell you that even after 300 hours, it is not until you PUNISH them for 24 or so that they sound fantastic.  I am talking 200-500 watts constantly for 24 hours.   :rock:

I found that to be true breaking in the AKSA I had also...  It sounded good but it needed to play LOUD for a while to finally settle down.

I sure wish I could get my hands on one of Frank's wonder-amps for next weekend's get-together.  I don't feel like paying a restocking fee and return shipping if it doesn't work out, though.  :(

-C

warnerwh

Re: Ultra 550 vs VTL and McIntosh Comparison
« Reply #19 on: 14 Jul 2006, 12:44 am »
Like the above poster I've never heard anything like it. My 550 EXR Rev 5 is an outstanding amplifier. Tonal shadings are very very accurate. Also I've never heard any amp sound so "Clean". It's hard to describe until you hear it for yourself.

Sometimes in life you should take risks due to the reward that may follow. It's not always good but as once was said by Helen Keller: "Life without risk would be like no life at all". 

The amp is unique in my personal experience.  It's quite audible too.  Like the other guy said, try them side by side, I guarantee you'll hear the difference.  In theory at least having tubes handle the input stage is superior. Whatever causes this amp to sound so clean I don't know but all other SS amps I've owned were very similar, this amp is a stand out.

I should add I'm driving the mid/tweeters of RM 40's only. Haven't tried it full range. One things for certain though, the bass should be easily handled, as well as any home speaker. The transformer in this thing is HUGE. Every piece of gear I get I blow out and clean when I get it. When I saw the size of that transformer I could hardly believe it. It easily dwarfs the transformer in my Rotel 991 which is 200wpc I use for the bass. I believe the transformer in the Rotel is 1.2kw.

Tyson wrote a review some time ago if you check the archives. He's also running Vmps RM 40's and praised the bass. Tyson went through alot of amps before getting to the 550 and hasn't bought another amp since. The RM 40's btw are not easy speakers to drive in the bass region and you'll hear it if you use an amp that's not upto snuff.
« Last Edit: 14 Jul 2006, 12:55 am by warnerwh »